Glassed ELB

[Buggs]

The saw mark side will be erased and covered in glue! They did provide a good reference for grinding.
I think I have decided on the wood combos. It was pretty easy considering I have a small selection of full length lam material. I'm going with the Maple back, a .100" parallel lam of Purpleheart and 2 belly lams of Osage. My Osage is not the best. They were rejects, too narrow and a bit of grain runout. Should be OK, the belly will be trapped and rounded to a small profile.
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Probably don't need the Purpleheart, but purple and yellow(Osage) look awesome together!

[Roy from Pa]

Looking nice Buggs.

[Buggs]

Hey,  thanks Roy! What started out as a curiosity, is becoming a reality.
I was so pleased how the sled worked out, I decided cut and grind the other lams.
[attachment=1,msg3009907] 

That Maple is really white! I want it to look more like Yew sap wood, so here is a trick to antique just about any wood
[attachment=2,msg3009907]
(The right side of the scrap is washing soda, the left is the original stain and toner on the wood.)

Sodium carbonate. It reacts with tannin in the wood, even wood with minimal tannin like Maple. I used full concentration on this sample. I don't want it that dark, so I will thin it down about 75%.
I have done this before and know it will not affect the glue line. Still, the carbonate is very alkaline and I do neutralize it before layup. I noticed once when spraying a seal coat of shellac on some chem dyed wood, that the non neutralized carbonate turned the shellac a reddish tone. Actually looked good, but it was not the look I was going for.

[Buggs]

I decided to goof around with the soda on different woods. I know there are a few bowyers here that like to play with color, so I thought I would post the results.

The full strength soda on Maple took on a green tone, looks a lot like Tulip Poplar. Not too many green woods in nature and it looks fairly natural.
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I also put some on Purpleheart, Osage and Yew
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The Yew looks like dark Mahogany, the Purpleheart looks like Black Palm and the Osage got crazy bright!
I sanded down the maple to get an idea of the penetration. It was around .015" Not bad for a quick swipe!

[Buggs]

I decided to glue up in two stages, purely out of fear of failure! I don't mind having some fancy firewood, but trash glass is a no no. The only woods I have ever had adhesion issues with are Osage and Purpleheart.
My pre-glue prep includes no solvent wipe. I block sand with 80grit, then 120grit and blow it off with clean, dry compressed air. I even put one of those can filters on the blow gun for extra insurance.
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[mmattockx]

I decided to goof around with the soda on different woods.

I appreciate all the experimentation you are posting Buggs.

I sanded down the maple to get an idea of the penetration. It was around .015" Not bad for a quick swipe!

I was about to ask about this when I got to the end of your post. That is pretty good penetration but the wipe definitely needs to be done close to final sanding. I may try this on the next bow I do just for something different. The maple looks very cool with that greenish tint. Do you find the washing soda at the grocery store or is it more of a specialty thing?


Mark

[Buggs]

I like to experiment! And it adds to the general knowledge base, hopefully!
You are correct about timing the application, it's water based and will raise the grain slightly. Which is exactly why I checked the depth of penetration. I got this at the dollar store, but I have seen it in many grocery stores.
I use distilled water to mix. Don't know if the minerals in some tap water will affect the color. Our water is very hard, with dissolved calcium and magnesium, so I don't take chances.

It looks almost exactly like the green toned Yellow Poplar. I really like the color
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[Buggs]

Guess this has become a build along   It would have been a lot easier just to post a screen shot of a bow, that actually build one! Oh well, now I'm committed. So I did the first phase of glue up. I have this EA-40 that seems to be the bottomless can. I don't use it much. Don't know if that the manufacturer date, or expiration date, but either way it's old!
[attachment=1,msg3010070]
Its also just fine for glueing up a bow. Visually looks good. Part B had the smell, so I timed how long it took to dissipate the ammonia smell. Less than 5 minutes.
[attachment=2,msg3010070]
(fume detector)

I know it is a point of much contention, but from experience, I can say epoxy rarely goes "bad"
These are all slow hardeners. They all have some degree of the caustic smell and they are all fine to use
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If its not OK to use for a bow, then its not Ok for overlays or any other secondary uses. Throw it away, or send it to me

Glue up time, epoxy is catalyzed,  the slow clock is ticking. Purple glue.
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Pulled the extra glue out after 3hrs at 130deg. It's hard as a rock. I mixed 110grams and had 32grams extra.
It looks like there is enough in the cans for one more bow!
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[Roy from Pa]

Sweet.

[Mad Max]

Something I have thought about doing for years, is making a laminated, glassed ELB. I have not seen an example of one and have been curious if anyone has made one? I can see some challenges in design and aesthetics trying to stay true to the traditional shape and tiller. The glass on the belly side handle area and horn nocks need some thought. As does getting a true D shape without rounding off all the glass.

I know ELB's are not very popular. I have not had one for years. Any one piece bows I have made in the past take a nasty set after being well used. But they are fun to shoot! Nothing like watching your entire arrow flight in slow motion, while your limbs are still oscillating like a tuning fork

I  would use 2 layers of .050 glass on the belly and start rounding over the belly and check the tiller until I got what I wanted, the glass May only be 3/4" or so wide.
That may solve your problems with the tips too

[Buggs]

Thats an idea that might work The only problem, at least for me, would be putting $36 worth of glass
(plus shipping) on and then grinding most of it off. I figure on having to do a rounded full depth trapezoid profile, to be able to have enough belly to glass.
There is another option that I have been chewing on.
[attachment=1]
Glassing with fiberglass sleeve over the entire bow after rounding the belly into the traditional "D" shape and then grinding off the back and re-laminating with some unidirectional.

[Buggs]

I chewed on it enough. I'm going to sleeve the bow. For anyone who is not familiar with biaxial braided sleeve, it like the Chinese handcuffs toy or a snake that just had a big meal. It conforms to the shape of its core. This is a piece of carbon sleeve, I'm going to use glass.
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I am also rethinking the grinding of the back and laminating unidirectional on. I might just leave the sleeve intact. It would be like a wound tube with a wood core. The braided tube is the same material a lot of fishing rod blanks are made from. Think about the bend those things can withstand, especially Fly rods whipping back and forth. It would also simplify any extra handle material added on because the sleeve would expand to accommodate.
Has anyone built, or even heard of someone building torsion box limbs?

I put some release tape on to protect the Maple back, which I was thinking was also a good idea to simplify the grinding stage later. I have a little time to change my mind if it's coming off because I had to order the fiberglass sleeve.
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Of course its transparent green.  I like the green Maple!
This could end up being a green, purple and yellow bow

[Kirkll]

This is pretty wild using a raw glass fiber tube or sleeve. Do you have any idea how heavy this thing is going to turn out doing this? You might end up with an English war bow of 200#, or a fancy pry bar..... but .....I'm enjoying your mad scientist  endeavors.    


I'll be interested in seeing how you tiller this sleeved bow without sanding through the glass.       Kirk

[Buggs]

I'm really not sure how heavy this thing will turn out to be! I am following some old ELB measurements for a Lemmonwood bow in old style target weights of 40-45# range. Pretty sure it going to come in a little heaver that that. Tillering is definitely going to be the challenge. There is no way to tiller after its sleeved, so I am going to have to tiller it in its unglassed form. Going be dicey, getting a deep enough bend without blowing up.
Fortunately the sleeve comes in different thickness. The stuff I ordered should wet out to around .010" or so.

[Longcruise]

I'm really not sure how heavy this thing will turn out to be! I am following some old ELB measurements for a Lemmonwood bow in old style target weights of 40-45# range. Pretty sure it going to come in a little heaver that that. Tillering is definitely going to be the challenge. There is no way to tiller after its sleeved, so I am going to have to tiller it in its unglassed form. Going be dicey, getting a deep enough bend without blowing up.
Fortunately the sleeve comes in different thickness. The stuff I ordered should wet out to around .010" or so.

Interesting stuff right here 🤔.

One thing that struck me when you mentioned wrapping the whole pre- tillered bow is how that will relate to your description of the glass tube as similar to the finger traps.  Will the characteristics of the glass change dimensionally as it is collapsed around the limb?  Also,  the deep limbs of an ELB will put more tension and compression demand on the glass which in turn might increase draw weight well beyond expectations and also might change the tiller as it stretches and collapses ong the length of the limb.

You are entering a new area of untracked forest.   Gonna be entertaining and educational.

[Mad Max]

Buggs you could rip a piece of fiberglass end to end and double it up on the belly like I said before.
In my tool and Die days the KISS factor (Keep It Simple Stupid) was always the way we built things.
You would need 2" wide glass more than likely. Just saying

[Kirkll]

I'll be curious how she comes out.....

Years ago I did some experiments with building  laminated arrow shafts using poplar, Douglas fir, and hickory. I laid up different combinations with a hickory core  . 3 lams in the .200 range, then turned them..... unfortunately the weight and spine differed a lot and I had a tough time getting a matched set. I even tried some bamboo combos with similar results.

Then I tried just using two lams with a glass cloth core. It really stiffened up the shaft a lot in one direction, but these things were impossible to straighten and have them stay straight.

All in all I failed miserably.... But it was a fun endeavor.    But seeing these glass and carbon sleeves, it makes me wonder if they could be used on an arrow shaft?
Might make some great fishing arrows.

Kirk

[Buggs]

You are entering a new area of untracked forest.   Gonna be entertaining and educational.

Thats for sure!. I have never seen reference to anybody doing a sleeve or torsion box style bow. New frontier or big mistake
Then again, you could say the same about anything attempted for the first time. Somebody had to take a chance!

The sleeve will definitely change fiber orientation as it compresses and stretched over the bow blank. But the nature of the fibers will mean that in the small diameter sections, it will become denser and more elongated.
I am counting on the consistent tapering to provide a progressive resistance effect.

Mad Max, I was thinking the same thing after your last suggestion. That would reduce the waste and cost.
I'm thinking I really want to do a traditional round belly profile, but that won't allow for flat glass application.

Kirk, you could definitely use the sleeve on arrow shafts. It comes in different diameters, so you would need to calculate the density of the weave and thickness of the sleeve relative to the stiffness of the wood being used.
I'm thinking you would want an extremely light weight wood. If you had a teflon rod, you could just make your own fiberglass or carbon arrows, using the rod as a mandrel. Then again if you had a teflon rod, you would be a superhero and would not need any stinking arrows

[Buggs]

Waiting for my glass sleeve to arrive. I have done some work, "D" shaping the belly. Hard to get a good pic.
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I realized at some point along the way that after tapering the lams, establishing the side profile and rounding the belly, that it was not going to be possible to do much, if any tillering in a traditional manner. So I left the Maple back fat, so I could remove material to get my bends. I have to say it has been fun work so far. It's like working with the perfect stave that requires only rectilinear material removal, no compensating for knots or twists.

[Buggs]

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(solar collector)

Don't know if this qualifies me to post in the "Primitive" forum or not   Maybe just rednek.
Decided to build up a small handle area rather than have a fat grip wrap. If I'm shooting off a knuckle, I'll be wearing a glove, so I'm thinking a thinner grip is preferable.