drawing with back

[nhbuck1]

How do you guys know that you are drawing with your back and not you arm muscles?

[McDave]

There are really two things you have to accomplish: draw with your back muscles, and keep your arm muscles relaxed as you release the shot.  Sometimes there is a tendency to tense the arm muscles when the shot is released, which screws up the shot as bad as not using back muscles to pull.

The goal is to learn to increase your awareness of your back muscles and arm muscles to the point that you can feel which muscles are tensed and which are relaxed.  There are several things that have been suggested to help accomplish this:

1.  Stand close enough to a blank bale that you don't have to worry about your shot, close your eyes and draw your bow, focusing only on relaxing your arm muscles and tensing your back muscles.  Do this enough times and eventually you should start to feel the muscles you are focusing on.

2.  Hold an arrow in front of you about chest high and try to pull it apart.  That is supposed to help you identify your back muscles.  Never worked for me, but you hear it often enough that it must work for someone.

3.  There is a setting on the Formaster that takes your arms out of play and makes you draw with your back muscles.  This doesn't help you to relax your arm muscles at the same time you tense your back muscles, but you definitely do learn to feel your back muscles.

4.  Stand with your back against a wall and press against the wall with your drawing elbow, holding it about at shoulder level. The muscles you are using are your back muscles.

You start drawing the bow with your arm muscles and transfer the weight to your back muscles as you are drawing.  For me, one advantage of holding at full draw is being able to check that my arm muscles are relaxed.  I don't think I would have time to do that if I were snap shooting.  A kind of indirect way of verifying that you're pulling with your back muscles is if you can feel that your arm muscles are relaxed.

[YosemiteSam]

Before the shot, it helps me to focus on having a limp wrist (string hand).  Complete opposite of handgun shooting.  Drawing, when I do it right, I slow my draw just short of my draw length to steady my hold and then continue drawing through my clicker.  The more I can get one continuous motion, the better my release.  The more I stop to aim, the worse I get.

Follow through tells me a lot.  If my hand is just behind my ear but still touching my face after the release, I know I got it right.  It's almost impossible to do that if I don't have proper back tension.  Any tension in my hand or wrist shows up in my release.

[Jock Whisky]

When I'm teaching newbies at the club I tell them to try drawing with the elbow. Seems to work with them

[nhbuck1]

i have been trying to imagine im closing a door behind me with my elbow anyone heard of this ?

[slowbowjoe]

The "closing the door" idea is pretty widely known, and a good reference. One thing to keep in mind is that a very high anchor makes it more difficult to engage the back muscles.

[katman]

The form master attached to your upper arm will force you to draw with your back. After a while you feel the muscle well enough to be able to reproduce on a shot without it.

[nhbuck1]

where can i get one of these? also i saw a photo of one how can you draw the bow back all the way with that  long string? the bow string would be way in front of your face

[McDave]

You should look at vol 3 of Masters of the Bare Bow, where Rod Jenkins demonstrates the Formaster.  You can get one at 3 Rivers or probably Amazon.

[nhbuck1]

i have that volume but it wont play on a computer dvd i dont get why.

[McDave]

Yes, I remember when you posted about that.  I'm not enough of a computer geek to know why that would happen, but it is a bummer.  I guess I played it on a regular DVD that is connected to a TV set.

[nhbuck1]

it worked on reg dvd im going to have to whip it back out thanks for the help guys

[forestdweller]

The best way to "get into your back" is to obtain a bow that is very heavy for you to reach full draw with, or if you have two bows, draw them both back at the same time.

You will REALLY feel your shoulder and back muscles take over about halfway into the draw with a bow that's 70# or greater in my personal experience.

You'd have to have arms like pop eye to draw back a 70# or greater bow using just your arm muscles.

For me nothing beats drawing back a heavier bow for bow training. It also builds up your strength as well.

Afterwords when I pick up my normal bow I can really feel the back muscles engage much harder than typically.

So my suggestion would be heavy bow training if you want to engage your back muscles more.

[KeganM]

Originally posted by forestdweller:
You'd have to have arms like pop eye to draw back a 70# or greater bow using just your arm muscles.

Not really. As a lanky teenager a regularly shot bows in the 70-85# range but didn't pay much attention to proper muscle control. Wasn't until I tried a kid's ultra-light bow (15-20#) that I could visually see the difference between an arm-draw and a back-draw in my follow through. Never got big arms, though!

My approach is a heavier bow, a lighter bow, and wide-grip pull ups. If I'm having trouble I pick up my wife's 20# bow and my 51# Imperial (typically shooting 45# these days). I alternate taking a slow shot with each bow and then very slow wide-grip pull ups, favoring one side at a time. Fifteen minutes is usually enough to get back on track.

Not really practical for showing folks how to use their back, but it works better for checking myself than the elbow to the wall (another great exercise). Just me personally.

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by KeganM:
   

Originally posted by forestdweller:
You'd have to have arms like pop eye to draw back a 70# or greater bow using just your arm muscles.

Not really. As a lanky teenager a regularly shot bows in the 70-85# range but didn't pay much attention to proper muscle control. Wasn't until I tried a kid's ultra-light bow (15-20#) that I could visually see the difference between an arm-draw and a back-draw in my follow through. Never got big arms, though!

My approach is a heavier bow, a lighter bow, and wide-grip pull ups. If I'm having trouble I pick up my wife's 20# bow and my 51# Imperial (typically shooting 45# these days). I alternate taking a slow shot with each bow and then very slow wide-grip pull ups, favoring one side at a time. Fifteen minutes is usually enough to get back on track.

Not really practical for showing folks how to use their back, but it works better for checking myself than the elbow to the wall (another great exercise). Just me personally. [/b]

I'm starting to question whether or not back tension is a real thing or is just made up to be honest with you. I have talked to one well known archer that believes that back tension is a myth.

I'm not the greatest shot in the world but I never needed instruction on engaging my back muscles or anything having to do with back tension and I can maintain decent groupings out to 35 or so yards when I'm not having an off day.

I think that as long as the original poster can consistently improve his accuracy on a weekly or monthly basis and continues to improve in his strength he should not be concerned with what muscles he uses while shooting.

I'd love to see someone draw back a 70#+ bow using just arm muscles because I don't think it's possible unless that person is incredibly strong.

[Terry Green]

See the 'door closing' diagram......

  Close the Door for Back Tension

[McDave]

I'm starting to question whether or not back tension is a real thing or is just made up to be honest with you. I have talked to one well known archer that believes that back tension is a myth.

.................

I'd love to see someone draw back a 70#+ bow using just arm muscles because I don't think it's possible unless that person is incredibly strong

John, probably I'm just dense, but your first and last sentences seem to be contradictory to me.

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by McDave:
 

I'm starting to question whether or not back tension is a real thing or is just made up to be honest with you. I have talked to one well known archer that believes that back tension is a myth.

.................

I'd love to see someone draw back a 70#+ bow using just arm muscles because I don't think it's possible unless that person is incredibly strong

John, probably I'm just dense, but your first and last sentences seem to be contradictory to me. [/b]

They were not meant to be contradictory. I was being dead serious when I said that I'd like to see someone draw back a 70#+ bow using just their arm muscles because it would be damn near impossible for most people and/or look very awkward if it was pulled off.

It would be the equivalent of someone single arm curling 70#. Something 99% of the weightlifters out there can not even do.

[KeganM]

I apologize, I didn't word that very well. Every muscle is being used, how much is the issue. If you're relying on your arms to move/hold the string, which I have in the past, it's not that the back isn't working, it's just not doing as much as it could. This lead to a lot of problems for me.

In fitness, some folks suggest you can target and strengthen a muscle just by focusing on its engagement more during chain training. While an arm curl as an exercise targets a specific muscle, shooting a bow is like a pull up using many muscles together in a chain. Not as specific. If you focus on the tension in your arms during a pull up, you can turn this "back exercise" into an "arm exercise". The back is still doing work to get you up to the bar, but you can make your arm bear more of that load by focusing on it specifically, which means bigger arms for the fitness enthusiast. That's still not as easy to teach as it is to just say "do bicep curls for bigger arms" though. As archers, we have to learn to focus the load onto the back specifically in the chain.

Hopefully that clears up what I was trying to say. The mental side is probably the hardest part of archery to discuss or explain.

[forestdweller]

No need for an apology brother. It was just a misunderstanding between me and you.

I get confused easily when back tension is discussed but I can definitely understand where you and others are coming from when it comes to increasing back tension.

Ever since I started to train with a much heavier bow than I'm used to I have noticed when I draw back my lighter bows I can really feel my right lat and shoulder drop slightly and contract much more than usual.

I hope your business is still doing great and you are still shooting them straight!