Here's a few pics of the bow I'm currently working on. The stave was the very skinny in the picture. It has a good bit of 'character' and some propeller twist. I've been able to take out some but not all with heat. The string also still tracks to one side of the handle area fairly strongly despite multiple heating attempts. This wood seems to not like heat as much as the hickory or other woods I've bent in the past (non-bowmaking). If I make this preference the arrow side, will this be ok?
Its currently at low brace, only about 2". I'm shooting for a fairly low poundage bow for this, maybe 35lbs, it's still a lot heavier than that. I could likely get a heavier bow out of it, but I actually want a lower poundage bow I can shoot for extended practice sessions. My shoulders still aren't in good enough shape for shooting a lot of arrows out of a hunting weight bow :biglaugh:
Rawhide backing, stained it with coffee to give it back a little more natural tannin look. The sheet I bought was bleached and I didn't like how white it was.
How does the tiller look so far? Any tips or tricks with eastern red cedar and English longbows in general would be much appreciated!
Looks pretty good but stay away from the center 1/3 for now until you get further along in the tillering process. It's easy to over do the center early on in the process.
Nice
I've been wanting to cut one of mine but not yet.
Can't see it too well in those pictures, but the wood is absolutely gorgeous. The garage also smells wonderful :biglaugh: Since I was backing it with the rawhide I evened up the sapwood a little bit, its still VERY wavy though. Not sure how good/bad that is. This D profile seems to be more difficult for me as a noob to work... the nice flat belly scrapes you can take on a traditional American flatbow are a heck of a lot easier to keep track of!
We'll see how it goes, I'm about half expecting it to blow up at any moment tbh.
Couple closer shots so you can see the wild grain patterns in this... I rounded over the string nocks, they still need some more work but I'll wait till its closer to 'done'.
ERC needs to be wide and long, 1-3/4" to 2" wide and 68"/70" long or so.
Wide and long will spread out the tension and compression.
Backing it would be smart.
When they brake it will be explosive :o
Haha yea I've seen a clip of ERC exploding during tillering, it was indeed spectacular :scared: It's already backed actually, just hard to see in those pics. I bought a large sheet of rawhide for about the same cost as the premade strips, but it was bleached and I didn't like how white it was. The coffee 'stain' got it looking very similar to the sapwood in color.
I've seen comments on making ERC wide and thin, but also comments on doing an ELB profile with it. Since the stave was so skinny, I figured it might be worth a shot to try that. It's around 68" and I'm going for low poundage. Hopefully it stays together, if not, It's been good practice on a new profile style for me.
A long ERC ELB should work fine.
Did you remove the sapwood or is it still on your stave?
I removed a little of the sapwood to even it up a little here and there. Its probably about half the thickness but it still varies quite a bit down the length of the bow due to the wavy grain.
This is another area I found completely conflicting info on by the way... some people swear by all sapwood making the best bows, others swear just as strongly that its the heartwood that makes good bows... And then there are some that use them together similarly to yew. I've had a lot of trouble finding any solid info on ERC in general.
I have definitely found its a PITA to heat bend, either by steam or heat gun. I've left it for 45-60m steaming and over bent it a LOT and it barely registered. I've also heated it with the heat gun for a very long time (at least double what I've done for hickory) and it just doesn't seem to want to take much of the bend. I've been careful not to toast it like you can do with hickory, as it already seems extremely brittle... so I've just been keeping the heat moving constantly and going slow with it till its too hot to touch.
Quote from: DesM8 on February 22, 2023, 09:24:19 PM
This is another area I found completely conflicting info on by the way... some people swear by all sapwood making the best bows, others swear just as strongly that its the heartwood that makes good bows... And then there are some that use them together similarly to yew. I've had a lot of trouble finding any solid info on ERC in general.
Yep
When tillering an ELD you want the shape to look like it's got a stiff handle. Then then scape and sand the handle area to just make it move for those last 2 inches or so of draw length. If you make the handle bend too much you'll get a jumpy bow with lots of shock. Even from lightweight cedar.
The last couple ERC bows I did had bamboo backings and I made them draw about 25-30# and 1" wide at the handle. I tillered them to barely flex in the handle. I've done some with rawhide backings and they end up just a bit thicker for the same weight.
Kyle
Kyle do you have any pictures??????????????? :thumbsup:
It could be the the area it grows in has a effect on the hardness/softness and the way the sap and heart wood reacts to bending in the bow.
I've been reading and some say clamping it down (reflex/recurved) while it is green and let it dry clamped down. :dunno:
Seems like a lot of negatives for building a selfbow but I may give it a try myself.
I have a bunch of ERC on my place and it's used a lot around here to build furniture for DIY's.
I looked at about 50 trees trying to find one without limbs for a selfbow.
I made this for my house, raised panels and Bar top self leveling epoxy for the top.
(https://i.imgur.com/ECpQRNa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/v8pM43O.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YP3UzeZ.jpg)
Looks like I didn't get any good full draw pictures of the last ERC bow before I sent it off. I did get a couple pictures of t he handle area to shot how much more built up the handle ended up and the approximate size a 30# cedar bow ends up. Though it is bamboo backed. But here's an Osage ElB to show the full draw tiller I'm talking about. Where it's more elliptically tillered with the handle bending just a little. It was circular tillered before and it shook the hell out of your hand. I shifted the bend out a bit and the jolt went away. It's a bit more bendy in the handle than I'd like but not by much.
Kyle
Kyle
I have always heard bamboo needs to be 1/16" thick at the tips and 1/8" thick at the handle to keep it from over powering the belly for all backed bows but someone on Facebook said I was wrong.
At that thickness your bamboo end's up 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" wide.
I wonder if a Maple or Hickory backed ERC bow at 1-3/4 to 2" wide would work better??????????
Thanks for the info Mo_coon. I still have the handle area 'relatively' thick, and there's still a good bit of weight on the bow that needs to come off... hopefully its enough to get the handle a bit thick for the elliptical tiller. I've seen what you mean about the small fades ELB makers put in near the handles, I'd guess you're on to the reason for why its done! In my inexperienced mind, the circular tiller was going to be easier for me to work... but it sounds like it'd give me a rather obnoxious bow. The point of this bow was to have something I could shoot easily for a couple hours, and it doesn't sound like it'd end up that way if I kept going the way I was.
Here's the progress so far... as discussed I've been trying to leave the handle a bit stiffer. Its pulling 35# at 18". I'm thinking somewhere around 35 for the final draw weight, so I'm trying not to pull it past that.
I think the right mid-limb is still a bit stiff maybe? How do you guys think the tiller looks in general though?
It does look like there is a bit more arc in the left limb to my eye. I like to lay out a grid of 3" squares on the tillering wall. Makes it really easy to carefully check and compare limbs. Example below.
Me too
I have 2" squares
(https://i.imgur.com/ar9RdIh.jpg)
I like the full grid idea guys, I just added the horizontal lines recently and that alone has already helped a ton.
The small size of the pic combined with the wavy grain along the profile creates a bit of an optical illusion... It looks a lot better in fullscreen/in person. I went for a bit of an elliptical tiller. If anything, I think I could take a little more off the tips. Still have a couple pounds to play with, some will come off during the final sanding as well.
I did end up taking a little more off the right side tip since the last post. Put 2 coats of Tru Oil on it just to seal it a bit. I figure if I have to rework the tiller a little during/after shoot-in I can touch up the finish easily enough since its oil. This wood really is beautiful to look at, I'm still just shocked I got this far without it breaking. I'll add more coats and a leather wrap handle after I shoot it a bit more!
It's taken about an inch of set, mostly in the two spots it was already naturally bent in deflex. I think I made a mistake in leaving these areas a little thicker during tillering to make the bend look perfect... which caused them more stress and subsequent set. Lessons learned.
Also finally made a string jig out of some really rough sawn oak I was given. Pretty old stuff, it looks like it was possibly the ends cut off some lumber before it left a mill. This came from a very wide board that had a ton of twist to it. I took that out with a hand plane on one side before running it through the planer. Turned out looking really nice with a quick coat of linseed oil... kinda overkill considering I just used finishing nails lol. Call me crazy, but I think that kind of thing is fun :biglaugh:
Nice
Nice, the one ERC I built was to short and narrow for the wood. Backed with Hickory I shot it for an hour. Took a break and came back to shoot more and the first pull it blew in a spectacular fashion I may try another after seeing this post. But I have a lot of Osage so I may not. lol
Well its my first ERC and second ever bow... so I'm half expecting it to explode ever time I pull it :biglaugh: The wood is really easy to work compared to hickory that's for sure. You can really tell how brittle it is during the early roughing out with the draw knife... I can see why it's known for exploding spectacularly.
I'll update again when its in a more finished state and has actually had more than a handful of arrows through it. Don't be surprised if the updated pic is a pile of splinters though. :scared:
Cool ERC longbow. I think ELB style bows might be a good choice for ERC. :thumbsup:
7 or 8 coats of TruOil. I got the handle wrap done today. Still need to serve the string and a few more little things, but here it is.
Some better shots of the coffee-stained rawhide backing and the handle wrap :biglaugh:
Nice Job :archer2:
Shoots really nice even without a nocking point :archer: Not much handshock at all, big thanks to Kyle for the tips on that!
That turned out awesome! Sweet that it shoots nice and smooth.
Kyle
Nice clean work there! :thumbsup:
If you decide to do some horn knocks I can send you a sketch of my drill bit and you can use blocks of solid wood, horn of any kind and deer antler. But for bows under 80# I use a 3/8" paddle bit ground to a cone shape to drill out the horn and then fit with a rasp. But after grilling the hole in the horn you want to pre taper the edge of the horn to the hole before flying it in so you can get a nice smooth transition.
Kyle
Thanks guys. Yea Kyle I'd love to take a look at the pattern and get some more info on your process. I haven't tried tip overlays of any kind yet, but I'd like to. I've got an elk shed that's already been gnawed on by some critter, I wouldn't mind experimenting with that to start.
Antlers will suck up all the glue and pop off.
So you need to fill the grain until it is full. :thumbsup:
When I get home after work I'll try to get some pictures of the bow tips and the bit I use to drill out the horn. Like Marc said, antler will soak up some serious glue. But the way I glue in the horn tips solves that issue. On antler I essentially fill the horn with superglue so it squished out when pressed into place. So if you fill the horn with glue and slosh it around a little you'll be sure to fill the pores.
That shed should work prefect. Especially if there are still a couple tine tips on it.
Kyle
Quote from: Mad Max on February 22, 2023, 08:52:24 AM
ERC needs to be wide and long, 1-3/4" to 2" wide and 68"/70" long or so.
Wide and long will spread out the tension and compression.
Backing it would be smart.
When they brake it will be explosive :o
About 15 years ago I had one break at full draw on the practice range at MOJAM. :scared:
Definitely got people's attention...
Quote from: Paul/KS on March 10, 2023, 10:18:38 AM
About 15 years ago I had one break at full draw on the practice range at MOJAM. :scared:
Definitely got people's attention...
:o
I missed MoJam last year, I have been going for about 10 years
Here's the drill bits I use for the horn nicks and the nocks of my Yew Mary rose bow. I have a 1/2" bit for the heavier bows and the 3/8" for the lighter bows.
Kyle
Kyle, I reshaped a spade bit just like that for a 95# yew war bow and an osage ELB I made a few years back. For me, the horn nocks were the hardest part of building either bow. It wasn't easy to make them look right but that could have been just me.
just you :tongue:
Atlesdt to get a good flow from the wood to horn I like to pre taper the horn after drilling the hole. I use the round front edge of the belt sander for this as it gets a good taper and leaves fluently of meat to work with to build up a string nock and decorate however you please. The best part of horn mocks is they don't need a perfect fit to work. The glue will fill the gaps and of it happens to pop loose the pressure of the string keeps it pulled into place.
Kyle