Trad Gang

I posted a question similar to the one below on the hunting legislation forum while back but it got shut down when they renamed the forum.  I'd like to open it up again and get everyone's thoughts on the issue.

In your opinion, what is the most significant threat to hunting today?  Think big, think hard.    

Since these issues may be vastly different from East to West, please state what part of the country or world you're from.

ch

Loss of habitat.

Ignorant hunters.

I live in NC.

Ignorant hunters, who think there's no way our way of life can be taken from us.....are betting their grandkids heritage.  If we fail to project a positive image of our pursuits (by our selfish; illegal; unethical and greedy actions), our hunting lands will continue to be bought up by people who simply won't allow hunting.  I see it happening, here, a little.  When I was grwoing up.....EVERYONE hunted or let hunters use their property.  Now....not so much.  Why???

We're gonna cut our own throats, if we're not careful......and we'll bleed out, slowly.

My friends and I were talking about this just last night. I think the most significant threat is the direction our American society has taken. No longer does every kid have a BB gun and a single shot .22. In a class of students, it is the extreme minority that hunt. Hunting has lost the glamor and excitement for these kids.

It's tough for simple, peaceful hunting to compete with:

Video games
soccer
football
lacrosse
girls
180 channels on cable TV
The extreme demands of grades (try and get a kid into a major state university with a grade point average of less than 4.0)

How many kids outside of our own (those of us here on websites like this) know who Fred Bear was?

How many kids run a trapline? Have their own bow/.22/shotgun? Not many. We are a dying breed.

I know, there are some rural pockets of the country that throw my theory into the mud. But as a whole, in this country, a  kid with a gun or bow draws a police response.

The shrinking of farming communities, the expansion of "yuppies" is ruining our country, let alone diminishing our sport.

QuoteI know, there are some rural pockets of the country that throw my theory into the mud. But as a whole, in this country, a kid with a gun or bow draws a police response.

So very sad but true. I can remember when I was in school kids could bring their new gun they got for Christmas to "Show and Tell" and the parking lot in high school was full of pick up trucks and they all had a rifle rack in the rear window and guns in the rack....Try that now days and you will be meeting your local SWAT team and making the evening news.
 

Well said, Roger and Mike. Also, add to this the cost of getting kids into hunting if you have multiple kids. Mainly, I'm referring to hunting licenses and tags. The state game departments preach about getting kids involved in the outdoor sports. Well, if they're serious about it, then let kids hunt and fish free until they're 18 years old. Families on tight budgets just can't afford to spend the money it takes to buy licenses and tags in addition to the equipment, gear, and clothing necessities that it takes to get three kids involved in our sport. The equipment and gear is expensive enough, so let's not make hunting out of reach by requiring kids to have to possess licenses and tags, at least until they're 18.

Roger pretty much sums it up there.

I would go so far as to say that even rural areas are not recruiting hunters, at least not in any significant numbers. I would add also, that most of the youngsters that do hunt are shown a much different view of it than what got us this far.

Heated box blinds over a long established bait pile at the end of a quad trail, with a scope sighted .243. I have listened to twelve year old boys talk about passing on "dink" bucks because they weren`t big enough. I don`t know about the rest of you, but I don`t EVER remember a buck too small.

I live in the northeast part of lower Michigan.

For what it`s worth, my kids know broadheads must spin true on an arrow, twenty yards is a long ways, and you don`t set a bloody knife in the leaves,... and that when you eat, something has died.

"Progress"

"In-Fighting" based on politics, elitism. Recruitment.

Less and less land every year to hunt.  The days of asking permision to hunt private land are just about gone.  I hate to say it but only the wealthy will be hunting, if something does not change.
Horner

Loss of habitat has to be a big one, but one I feel is equally lethal is leasing and outfitters.
As more land is leased and brought under the control of outfitters, the more difficult it becomes for young ones to experience the hunting adventure.
If the business grows as much in the future as it has in the last 20 years, hunting will truly become the sport of "Kings" of at least the most affluent.
Few young people will have the opportunity to hunt.

This Is just my opinion.

Just hunting In general I believe It's the hunters themselves. People In general are much more sensitive today then ever before and In my opinion the hunters haven't adjusted to It. The world Is changing and I believe were going to have to change with It some and be damn careful on how we project ourselves as hunters. When hunters are around non hunters, don't be telling the gruesome blood trail story or be showing pictures with blood and tounges hanging out. My dad brought me up like this so doing what I just wrote Isn't an Issue with me but more of a habit then anything. I plan on bringing my daughter up the same way.

I also believe the politicians have a big hand In this too. Like others have said, you have to be damn careful where you have a gun these days. Years ago I use to bring my bow to school and show people that wanted to see It, I'd bet things would be different today If someone would do that.

Here in Montana I think it is loss of access due to many different reasons.

Television

THE RECORD BOOKS.
As soon as we start keeping score,hunting became a sport.Like all sports,w/ competition there is money to be made and once revenue came into play hunting has lost alot of it's purity.

b. glass hit the nail on the head.

Man's encroachment into native habitat.

Winterhawk1960

Loss of access to hunting grounds.  There are various reasons, however the most dissappointing to me is the huge limited access trend for trophy animals.
When a local kid can't knock on a door and get permission to hunt anymore....what do you expect.

In Michigan we are our own worst enemy.  Too many hunters feel their way is the only way.

The general public listens to the hunters fighting each other saying it's unethical to use trad gear/crossbows/compounds/high-powered, scoped rifles/bait/food plots/blinds/traps/hounds and believes all of us are bad.

gross human overpopulation, and the urban way of life and mentality.

Without a question, the lack of recruitment of new hunters will doom our hunting heritage.  All the other things are contributive but the simple fact that fewer people hunt will eventually make us irrelevant.  The statistics are undeniable.  About 5% of Americans hunt.  Many of those are past child bearing age.  Most have not replaced themselves.

You got it John. We will be overrun by ignorant nonhunters. I don't necessarily mean stupid when I say ignorant. I mean they have not grown up in a hunting family and they raising their kids in that same ignorant environment. So, they want to see animals in the woods, but not allow others to kill them...because they don't understand what it means and the benefits of being a hunter!

I don't blame the lack of recruitment on anyone as much as I do ourselves.  As I said, the other things are contributive but we did this.  Generally, by the time we realized there a was a problem, really back in the 70s, the tipping point had been reached and we have been going downhill since.  I blame ignorant hunters much more than ignorant non-hunters.

I believe Roger hit it on the head. When I first started hunting, deer and turkey's were very scarce around here to say the least. Due to hunters interests and dollars our state wildlife dept. stocked animals bringing them back to the good populations we have today. With hunters dollars habitat preservation also has improved. When our generations kids grow up and don't care whether there are any animals to hunt or even care to hunt period. Habitat and hunting seasons will begin their decline.

It's true hunters kill and take, but we are the ones that brought the animal back and are managing them so the populations don't get out of control. Will the next generations be good stewards of the land and its critters, or will they just not care? Hunter interest and habitat preservation is the key and one can't happen without the other. None of my non hunting friends has ever given a dollars to save habitat or protect wildlife.

your president and vice president.

Apathy, and mostly from parents who use electronic baby sitters.  They are too lazy or don't care to show the kids what's available outside.  

Non-hunters won't end hunting...even more ridiculous to think the President or Vice President will.  It's us......only us.  Hunters who sit around whining and don't know the phone number or e-mail address of their representatives.  They are the first ones to be negative about hunting and never call their reps (they will say it won't do any good).  Of course it won't do any good if you don't do it.

In Pennsylvania we have over 2million acres of public hunting land, and a majority of hunters only bitch about no game.  It's not lack of land; it's not lack of opportunity; it's not non-hunters.   Look in the mirror and see if you are doing all you can to promote hunting.  And not just in your own house.

QuoteIn Pennsylvania we have over 2million acres of public hunting land, and a majority of hunters only bitch about no game. It's not lack of land; it's not lack of opportunity; it's not non-hunters. Look in the mirror and see if you are doing all you can to promote hunting. And not just in your own house.

George,

Interesting as Iowa is in a completely different ball park.  Adequate amount of game, yet ranks in the bottom 4% of States as far as public acres.

Morning Star, and leasing will eventually eliminate even more private land there for the average hunter, as in a lot of midwest areas.  The insatiable quest for big antlers has imbedded the seed and frankly it is not for the best overall.  When only the affluent can hunt, what has been gained?

I should have also mentioned that Pa. has large amounts of private land/farms that open their land to hunters.  Even with that, hunter numbers are dropping and I doubt that trend will stop. It's a new age....new generation, different outlook.

I have to add one more thing.  I think that public land is great.  That is what I hunt all of the time.  However, it is over hunted during the state wide gun season.  The early season of bow hunting can be OK, but after the guns crack, you are lucky to see many animals during daylight hours on public ground.  There is nothing wrong with the gun season, it's just that there are to many people on any given track of public land in Ohio.  All of the deer are on the privatly owned farms with limited to know hunting.  This is where the over population stuff comes into play.  Its sad when you hunt your boots off all day long and on the way back home you see 20 or more deer in someones back yard, because they are feeding them.  This is a whole nother issue!!!!!!
Horner

Loss of access to huntable habitat, public or private.  I feel game herds in general are in great shape these days.  But the fact is that "average hunters" cant access them.  This, I feel, is a great contributor to the apathy, the drop-out rate of existing hunters, the recruitment of new ones.  All in the name of money for a few.  The industry of hunting is killing hunting.  

Desperate hunters are also more prone to "breaking laws" or crossing ethical lines than they may otherwise have done.  The difficulty in finding places to hunt, combined with the pressures and expectations that the industry blatantly promotes leads to disappointments and regular folks "giving up" what seems to them something that only the "rich" can do.  This loss of hunter numbers will ultimately lead to declines in revenues and good management options for the public.  That's my 2 cents.

i live in estern nc andi hear some horrible stuff sometimes. some of the stuff i hear is from first hand sources not to be named. here in eastern nc you can harvest 6 deer total, four antlered and two anterless deer. now from some of these sources ive heard them say" ive killed sixteen so far". wow talk about greed, and they have gone further to say that they havent even filled their tags yet. some of these sources are members of hunting clubs, whom as you may know also run dogs. which i totally disagree with.where is the sport in that? now i only have access to public lands. during bow season none of the fire trails are maintained so all the undergrowth is kinda tall, which makes it difficult for a bow hunter to see whats going on. but whatch out for regular gun season that stuff is mowed down quick. but then the woods is full of gun totin road side hunters runnin dogs. now let me ask you, would you want to step in these same woods with a bow while the gun hunters runnin dogs are at the road 500 yrds behind you while their dogs are runnin loose. and on top of it , which has also been my experience if you are lucky enough to make a harvest and you are draggin one out of the woods these same gun totin' roadside dog runnin'hunters aproach you and say " my dogs where runnin that deer  its mine" what would you do? now i did tell this particular fella." your the fella with the gun, do something". i did walk away with my deer. but man let me tell ya compitition is feirce round these parts. i say get rid of the dogs and the hunting clubs and give everyone including the deer a sporting chance otherwise its just gonna get worse. and the heart of the problem i think is it is those with money. and im not talkin just a weekly pycheck either if ya know what i mean

I agree with "progress", and everything that comes with it.

That involves urbanization, where fewer and fewer have less and less concept of the natural world around them or that they are even a part of it. For most, meat only comes pre-cleaned and pre-packaged and somehow hunting a wild animal is cruel but raising an animal in a cage to kill is not.

It involves technological advances. From the 3 channel black and white turning into the 54" HD 300 channel eye catcher to the game Pong turning into Grand Theft Auto III. It involves this very screen we're reading, the internet. It's Facebook, Twitter and the Ipod, with the text message and the blackberry included.

It involves the busy go-go work world many are now almost trapped in to pay the bills. And in order to make up for time not spent with kids, many parents overload and overschedule them with sports activities, ballet, swim classes, band practice, etc.
With all the other activities scheduled, there's no time left for hunting season.

It involves loss of habitat due to sprawl. In order to escape the urban lifestyle, many (myself included) opted for a few acres within reasonable distance to where the good jobs are, yet close enough where there's good schools. But for every new sub-rural development that goes in, one more good hunting woodlot is gone. Then comes the invariable demand for better shopping and restuarants in the area, since those of us who moved farther from the city rarely want to have to go back there, other than for work only.
And then every new store or restaurant eats up that much more vacant land.

And the eating up land isn't a zero sum game. A new big box store eating up 400 acres doesn't eat up just 400 arces. It kills most hunting for at least a 1/2 mile radius, if not more. Given that a gas station and fast food joint will follow, at least a mile radius has been lost.

Then there's single paraenthood. One can't fault unhappy marriages from ending, but a single mom and a dad who gets every other weekend usually results in a kid having a greatly reduced chance of becoming a hunter.

I happen to think that fellow hunters, even those on different sides of any issue are among our greatest assets. Like a family, we're all we've got when it comes down to it.

And as far as "big bucks" ruining things, I can think of "big buck" contests and "big buck night" on local TV hunting shows since I was born. Boone and Crockett has been keeping these scores since 1950.

If anything has changed there, it's the very widespread availability of whitetail deer all across the country, compared to 30-40 years ago. What was once considered to mainstream hunters as an accomplishment, that being killing any buck, is now viewed by more and more hunters as ho-hum, since there's so many deer in so many area's that just killing any buck offers little challange to more and more hunters. If you see 2-3 bucks every sit, compared to maybe 2-3 a year 30-40 years ago, why end your season early, is the thinking that's taken hold.

Walt Disney.  

He and his company more than anyone else has popularized the notion that but for hunters, nature is the garden of Eden where all animals live a full happy life and, if they die at all, do it in peace, passing on words of wisdom to their descendants.

Too many people grow up on that stuff thinking man is evil and nature is good.  They have no idea that life of a deer or an elk, for example, is so tough, trying to find food, trying to make it through the winter, trying, where there are still predators not to make it on to some predators dinner menu, that the best of us hunters is a minor nuisance compared to what else they face.  But Mr. Disney and his followers have so well established the argument that hunting is cruel and evil that the facts rarely actually get into the debate.

Loss of habitat.

But.......

As with all things there is always more to the picture. All the little things add up. Pollution, changing values, TV, religon, nonreligon, media coverage that makes a minority look and actually be, powerful, but....

with out habitat you can change ALL the other things and we won't have animals and we won't have hunting.

Also there is more to habitat than just a few acres set aside. Read "Walking the Big Wild" or "Being Caribou" by Heure. He set it in perspective..  :readit:

I could go on and on but there it is , my  $.02 worth for now.

When states, such as Kansas, started thinking that big game are a commodity and hunting is a revenue source that is making it harder for some as far as acess...
Couple that with a 24/7 work week and it gets harder for some of us to get the chance to hunt often enough to justify the time and cost...

QuoteOriginally posted by Clay Hayes:
In your opinion, what is the most significant threat to hunting today?  Think big, think hard.    
[/QB]

I think you know the answer to that:

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff187/GingivitisKahn/410196982_cf66cb0b9d.jpg)

We currently live in burgeoning socialist state and hunting is just one of the many freedoms to which we are apt to wave bye bye.

well Roger has a good point, when i was about 12 me and my friend almost had a gun drawn on us by a cop when we were out behind his house plinking with our bb guns, we were in a big woods in an area were you could shoot more than a bb gun, and some crazy lady apparently reported some heavily armed diabolical youths planning on world domination, roaming the forest. Anyway ignorance is becoming a real problem, more and more people are believing they are doing more for the outdoors by sitting on there couch and leaving it alone than the outdoorsmen that love and care
for it more than they could ever understand.

I am not sure what the largest problem is.  I just know that there are several and that I am doing what I think is the most powerful thing I can do.  I am raising my 2 boys to the most ethical, honest and conscientious way that I know how.  

We hunt because any meat-eater should be okay with it.  Meat comes from animals and they are all "innocent" - not just the wild ones.   I'm surrounded by the same ignorance I used to have about hunting and hunters.  Society sees is as barbaric, when it is actually the most fair, ethical (not to mention Godly) way to obtain meat.  Hunting is being bred out of our kids.  You with children need to have good reasons to hunt and then teach them to your kids.  Buy them a license early, get them out in the woods and teach them to appreciate- no, cherish the natural order of things.  Do it within the rules and our numbers will grow.  Their families will do what we are doing.  

I openly share my reasons for hunting with people I work with.  I raise chickens (6 hens) for eggs and grow veggies in the summer.  I see hunting as an extension of this urban agrarian lifestyle that I have going.  I talk openly about it and am prepared to defend my position with honest, valid answers.  Hunters used to be gentlemen - let's bring some of that back, guys.  

PS:  I am in the heart of Minneapolis, Minnesota - a metropolis.

Pogo said it best....

     "I HAVE SEEN THE EMENY!

     AND HE IS US!

Leasing and the overall commercialization

I think it is the loss of big timber now taken over by developement.  But most of all is the litter.  Several people that I used to be able to hunt their property, now will not allow it because of the abuse the hunters give and leave on their property.

Loss of access is a biggy. Long gone are days a boy can grab a 22 and head out to do some hunting without paying a bunch of money for a lease(if you can find one). Now they sit home and play v games. I have to admit here in Texas hunting has become such a darn hassle that Ill probably just give it up in the future too.
SL

Canned killing operations. Reduces the image of the hunter in the minds of the non-hunting majority.

For where I hunt in the northern Rockies:

Bird hunting--leases

High-quality big game hunting experiences on public land--4 wheelers and snowmobiles, hands down.

One word - people, for all the reasons above and the ones to come.

For what it's worth, in the big parking lot at my high school, there's still a couple rows of trucks left. When we get our deer mounts back, we pull into school with them in the passenger seat. If you searched our trucks, you'd find several shotguns, even a few bows, mabye even some apple pie or pineapple moonshine     :rolleyes:   . The town's gettin bigger every year, but we still hunt and fish. We light a bonfire at the farm on friday night and we go to church on sunday. We've got it good for now. I plan to do my part to educate people about hunting, one day I'll have a couple kids, and you can be damn sure that they'll grow up in the woods.

                        Zane

Urbanization
Lack of time
Access
Lack of Mentors

###  t shirts that say " hapiness is a warm gutpile"......

### tv shows that offer guys head to toe in camo shooting [ note i did not say hunting] animals  often over bait from a well heated tree stand within the confines of high fenced property, then whoopin and hollerin at their 'success'. try explaining  this as hunting to joe public......i know i couldn't...

### apathy from hunters within their own community. are we all members of appropriate hunting org?...have you introduced someone to the outdoors?

### the almighty dollar and television.....

ben

not necessarily in this order:

Canned hunts.

The ideology that the rack is the reason.

People speaking for us; that are hunters; but have an agenda that is really a fad.

Our society. We are a society that believes that money can buy you everything. And that money ~should~ buy you everything.

Actually I am optimistic; because I think hunters that hunt canned hunts; and breed for dumber deer and bigger racks; and technology replacing effort... are food for those: that get bored with the same diet.  

Some say : 'follow the money'. I think it is really 'all about power'. Power be it fame; or influence.

The biggest danger ~we~ face; as traditional bowhunters: is that we do not have a face.

But danger does not determine fate.

I know some will not like this response, but it is my opinion.
Hunting vidoes and hunting shows are far too graphic and some are being made by people who must not fully understand the ethics of hunting.
Showing an animal die or flop around on the ground is not a necessary part of any video. Hunting will only continue if the young people of today become part of our sport. Seeing an animal die does not appeal to most young people and risks turning them away from the sport. If a young person is being guided by an adult, they can be guided and taught about the death. But if a young one is flipping channels and sees a video on tv showing the animal flopping and kicking, we will lose that kid most of the time.
Another issue which I believe is wrong and can be used by the antis,is the hunting competitions. There should never be any type of competition (on video or not on video)concerning the killing of any animal.
We need to wise up and realize it is not all about making the money on the tv videos.

Ignorance.  It all, always, comes down to ignorance.

I see a lot of reactionary-ism, along with a lot of wisdom, in this thread.  I love cities.  Urbanization has brought great things.  Nothin' wrong with video games or TV if used properly.

Instead of looking for reasons to ignore, or condemn, or look down on people (he's a cityboy, he's a lefty, he's an X, so he's against hunting), we need to calmly make our case.  Hunting is ethical, sustainable, positive.  Hunters contribute, to their societies, to their communities, to their families, to their world.  Hunting engenders, nay, it demands, accountability, awareness of where food comes from, awareness of the basic necessities of human existence.  Hunting is better for the animals, who live quality lives, unlike those trapped in the meatplants.  Hunting is better for the kids, who learn about cause-and-effect, who learn that every act has a moral and ethical dimension, and willful ignorance does not excuse you from that fact.  And it is better for Hunters, who, having tasted the excitement of a stalk, feel a pang (or more) of regret for the kill.

Hunting is good, when it is good, when it is not turned into a reason to destroy, to debase, and to cheapen.

We need to combat ignorance, in ourselves, and in others, gently, calmly, firmly.  We need to convince those we can, and plant seeds that might germinate later in minds too closed to recognize reason.  And we need to look for allies where we can.  Because I'm telling you, gentlemen, ladies, there's never a good reason to turn a heart against you and yours.

Simple fact - times are a'changin.  Whats the saying - "You are either on the train or on the tracks." - I'm afraid hunting and rural heritage are squarely on the tracks.  

Technology - can you imagine - guys sitting in treestands text messaging, talking on cell phones - I mean so connected to being "wired" you can't put the blackberry down for a deer hunt?  A big problem we face today - how do you mix the modern with the "traditional" - hunting is going to lose.

Hypocrisy - Don't preach about high fences in your state/country etc if you hunt in "other" places where they are.  Hunter access is a real problem, and I feel for the guys stuck with little or no access - but some of the biggest "proponents" of hunter access in the Traditional Bowhunting community hunt on large private landholdings - I was born at night, but not last night - where is the credibility?

I'm part of the problem I guess, as one of my landowners spoke with me yesterday about leasing her ground - she's just tired of dealing with the jags that run roughshod on the land she pays taxes on, and you know what? I'm jumping on this opportunity posthaste.  I'm tired of dealing with the jags too.  Selfish? Maybe so, but frankly I feel I have more in common with the whitetails anymore than with the vast majority of my "brother hunters".

Upstate NY-- loss of habitat: loss of agricultural lands, access.

Ourselves.


Hunters in many respects are their own worst enemy, for many of the reasons already listed.

Guys there are many thing thats are making kids and the young people not wanting to hunt or bowhunt... First kids can't be kids any more like some of u guys say that u could take your guns to school or walk down a dirt road and no one would even care.. I dont know have many times I had the law called on me for walking down the dirt road where I live with a bow in my hands.. or how many times the law has called my house asking me to shop shooitng my bow for the day... two or three people who live on my road are no hunters and think that I should stop... Well I am out side shooitng my bow there kids are inside playing there video game as there mom dose not want them to even talk to me and we wnet to high at the same time and are friends she wont even let him come to house at all becuse she think's he is going to shoot a gun.. well at the same time he has a paint ball gun.. But she lets him shoot it only about 1 time a year.. well I can tell u what i am not going to stop shooting I realy don't care how pisses off she gets.. Also I am sorry to say but school is some thing again as when I was in High school I got kicked out of class do to me telling the teacher how hunting is a good thing and how I think ever one should have the rigth to hunt because it get kids out doors she did not like the fact that I said that and asked me to leave and never come back to her class.. I said ok and walked out..... I am not the first stundent to get kicked out for likeing hunting the year before she kicked out two girls who I know just for going hunting and with with there dads...

There are many thing that not helping us out guys.. But I going to tell u I will never stop helping kids get into archery and hunting.....

Take Care guys,

Cody

P.S u guys may like these pics

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  (http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu197/TradBowKid/00small47194937.jpg)

  (http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu197/TradBowKid/00small71788570.jpg)

My friend there in the back ground is the one who lives just down the road but his mom well not let him come to my house....

Loss of habitat, hands down.

Without wild places, desire to hunt or lack of it means nothing.

My vote is ignorant people: thanks to TV and A/C the vast majority of Americans have become totally divorced from nature.  This newspaper clipping can say it better than I can:

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c375/joehenz/newspaper.jpg)

WOW is all I can say to that WOW who the hell is that dumb to think that... Man I wish people would get there head out of there u know what.....  :scared:    :scared:  

Cody

A lot of you have made valid points but several have blamed ourselves. This is very true, in my opinion WE are the MAIN problem. We as a group do a lot of things that are a detriment to the sport and not a lot that is good for it.

Most of us know the the things we do that put hunting in a bad light but how many of us do anything that really promotes it? I live in Illinois where we have thousands and thousands of bow hunters. We have two state bowhunting organizations. Guess what? We have a total of less than 400 members in both of them! That is nothing short of pathetic! I'll bet I am not the only one on here that notices all the people from my state that regularly post on Trad Gang and wonder why they are not members of their state bowhunting clubs?

I hope this is not taken as a put down but rather as a wake up call. More bowhunters need to step up and help or it is certainly going to get a lot worse.

Gun hunters, have worst of all...but what if they banned bows...banning weapons for hunting is the worst threat now!!!!!

QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Kissner:
Most of us know the the things we do that put hunting in a bad light but how many of us do anything that really promotes it? I live in Illinois where we have thousands and thousands of bow hunters. We have two state bowhunting organizations. Guess what? We have a total of less than 400 members in both of them! That is nothing short of pathetic! I'll bet I am not the only one on here that notices all the people from my state that regularly post on Trad Gang and wonder why they are not members of their state bowhunting clubs?

I hope this is not taken as a put down but rather as a wake up call. More bowhunters need to step up and help or it is certainly going to get a lot worse.

Great post, couldn't agree more!!

Bill; I am a member of the local fisha and game advisory committe. Thats one of the things I do. Talking about the issues rationally is another thing. The lack of impact we make, is disheartining tho.

QuoteMost of us know the the things we do that put hunting in a bad light but how many of us do anything that really promotes it? I live in Illinois where we have thousands and thousands of bow hunters. We have two state bowhunting organizations. Guess what? We have a total of less than 400 members in both of them! That is nothing short of pathetic! I'll bet I am not the only one on here that notices all the people from my state that regularly post on Trad Gang and wonder why they are not members of their state bowhunting clubs?

When I first became a member of the Iowa Bowhunters I heard that we average around 3000 members.  That would be near 10% of the amount of resident bowhunters in this State.  I thought that was pretty poor (still do), later I found that we have one of the strongest memberships in the country, percentage wise, suprise, suprise.

Some things we can't change, but joining and giving a little back to what you enjoy is a darn good start.

I have to agree with Bill, hunters as a whole really know how to shoot themselves in the foot.

My husband and I debate the clearing of fence rows all of the time. As a farmer it is a joy to see a solid field of nothing but dirt or crops. I ask him to just cut the limbs back in a fence row but he gets chainsaw happy and clears the whole thing. And this is just the tip of the ice berg. People wanting to "live in the country"  knock down sections of woodlands and houses get put up. Fence gets put up and "NO TRESPASSING" signs, and they look at you with distrust when you ask permission to hunt. I've started handing out a sheet with references. And I don't think it's as bad for me being a woman.

In my opinion,

1) The apathy, selfishness, and stupidity of ourselves - hunters and voters.

2) The Left Wing Liberal Socialists.  

3)The ignorant fools who believe and trust the Left Wing Liberal Socialists.

In Texas the big problem has always been the lack of public land to hunt on. We have 4 national forests that are all in east Texas between Dallas & Houston. They get an incredible amount of pressure. There are a few state owned tracts that are available but not many. This means that the majority of good hunting property is private and you have to buy a lease. It is very hard to find a lease in Texas that is less than $1000 per year per hunter. This has had a major effect on the average working class hunter.

We do have very good access to public lands for bird hunting. I live in Houston and can drive less than 100 miles in any direction for good waterfowl hunting. To get to the good dove hunting is around a 200 mile trip (we usually go camping)

When I was growing up my hunting mentors were my two grandfathers. One was retired- he was a woodsman and built custom Mausers on the side. He was also a dog hunter. He enrolled me in the NRA junior marksmanship program when I was eight and took me to all the local shoots. He gave me my first .22 and I had 400acs next to his house that I could hunt on any time I wanted as long as I didn't shoot any of Mr.Grant's cows.

My other grandfather was a serious duck hunter and bay fisherman. He taught me to shoot a shotgun, duck, dove, & quail hunt. Taught me to fish for trout and redfish and took me to do all of these things. If it hadn't been for these two men (both ex-military) I would never have had the opportunity to hunt and fish.

My father was very serious about his business and almost never took a day off.

And last but also as important was my uncle who got the family into archery & bowhunting in the late 50s.

If it hadn't been for them I would have spent all of my time swimming or playing tennis.

socialism, its knocking on the door.  youtube..."agenda 21 for dummies".  there you go

I am 16 and I have had neighbors giving me the stink eye every year of my life for shooting my bow in my yard. Last year one neighbor even called the cops on me (only to realize everything I was doing was legal).

And you know why those people did that? Because nobody introduced them to hunting when they were young and taught them otherwise.

I also think that there needs to be more hunting and outdoor magazines or shows geared towards the young hunters. All hunting shows are geared towards middle aged men.  

Enjoy sharing the love of hunting!

I agree with GMMAT and Roger, also we're hurting ourselves pitting trad. VS compound VS crossbow too much.

So much emphasis is put on growing and killing big bucks that most of the private land that once was open to many is now being posted at an alarming rate. I regained access on two pieces of land that I had permission in the past but then lost due to deer crazy friends of the land owner we are only allowed to hunt woodchucks and spring turkey. The rest of the year it is off limits because the neighbor wants it for deer. I stopped at another chunk of land that I always could hunt and was told that no one but their nephew was allowed on there anymore, he also wants to manage it for deer. it just keeps getting worse last year I tried to get my son into some fall turkey but our hands are tied because of lack of access to most of the woods that we always had good luck hunting, in past seasons. Lack of access will dwindle the numbers down till there are so few left that our political voice will be silenced for good.

Roger Norris 2 made a good point about not as many kids hunting, and me and a couple friends are part of a dying breed of kids that run thier own trapline, my buddies and me would rather go build a bow or go hog or yote hunting in the summer over videogames any day, sadly though this upcoming fall simester I start college and I'm gonna have to give a lot of it up to keep up my grades

A lot of good points have been made,from the lack of our own participation to the loss of hunting sites.I have seen a lot of hope for the future here on Trad Gang,the pics and stories of Families hunting together and the mentoring of young hunters.This topic has made me realize that I need to provide more support to the organizations that are trying to promote and save our hunting privlages.

I was involved in the politics of hunting for years and I'd say it hunters.

Liberals and the cancer of their ideology that they spread through their hegemony of all forms media that is quickly choking the life out of apathetic, narcisstic, deluded, dependent, "in self-denial" America.

Hey, you asked.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clay Hayes:
I posted a question similar to the one below on the hunting legislation forum while back but it got shut down when they renamed the forum.  I'd like to open it up again and get everyone's thoughts on the issue.

In your opinion, what is the most significant threat to hunting today?  Think big, think hard.    

Since these issues may be vastly different from East to West, please state what part of the country or world you're from.

ch

Other Hunters!

We as hunters do not stick together.  We fight and pick at each other about how we hunt and what weapons we use to hunt and all this does is make us weaker.  We are ALL hunters even though we have a few bad apples in the bunch the overwhelhming majority of hunters are good people.  We need to stick together or we will be driven apart.

Transferal Blame is not going to help our cause.  We can blame video games(It's your house, put a limit to them), we cam blame legislators(Did we help them get elected???) etc....  Stop blaming everyone else.  Start taking the responsibility one yourself to control what you can control.  Take as many kids in the outdoors with you as you can as often as you can.  Talk to other people in a positive manner about how they hunt and show them that traditional archery is still alive and thriving(this is how I learned about it 3 years ago).  IS it hard, yes, but it is very rewarding.

posted land

There wont be a next generation of hunters in much of the East.

QuoteOriginally posted by JC:
Liberals and the cancer of their ideology that they spread through their hegemony of all forms media that is quickly choking the life out of apathetic, narcisstic, deluded, dependent, "in self-denial" America.

Hey, you asked.

Right the heck on!

us.

The same reason we are about to become the newest socialist state on the planet.

Apathy- personal detachment- the nanny state in terms of education- passivity- moral relativism- the list goes on and on...

In the U.S., generally less than 50 percent of those who can vote, do vote. Doesn't that say a great deal more about us than anything else?

I've been telling people for 20 years that our fate as hunters rests not with the anti's, but with the vast pool of people in the middle that neither hunt nor care for the rhetoric of the "save the whales nuke the Republicans no nukes don't wear fur down with hunting fishing hurts eat tofu" crowd- and if we don't win them over we're doomed.

Winning them over means we have to show them we are more than beer drinkin' rebel flag totin' night shinin' over the limit kill at all costs yahoos. Not sure that's possible any more.

100 yard shots at elk with a bow trumps all the good a bunch of people can do. A picture in the paper of a goose with a field point tipped arrow sticking out of its neck is worth 10,000 guys doing it the hard way. A guy on TV saying "I do it the hard way" and then proceeding to take 40 yard running shots at caribou works out to about a million hours of "good efforts" by the rest of hunters...so I'm not sure it can happen.

With the way this country is going, being able to legally sport hunt is going to be the least of your problems.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:


The same reason we are about to become the newest socialist state on the planet

Not in my life time

Too much focusing on what's wrong and not enough of promoting what's right.

Man

Wow, I could likely launch into a diatribe that would bore every reader here to tears concerning this seemingly innocent queery.  (Dont worry Ill refrain)

In my opinion the single biggest threat to our hunting heritage is detatchment.  Dont get me wrong its like saying the reason the bucket is wet inside is because of a drop of water.  However true it may be, that single drop of water is joined by countless other drops to cause the bucket to be fully wet.  There are indeed countless causes attributing the decline in the hunter numbers and hunting's popularity but simply put as a society we have become detatched from the lifestyle that promoted outdoor sports in general.

I bow my head and raise my hands that I have been lucky enough to have been raised in a family that knew where its meat, eggs and produce came from (you might guess that wasnt the mega-super-giganto-mart).  We planted and harvested, we hatched, raised and butchered, we birthed, fed and slaughtered or milked, we collected eggs, we hunted and we fished.  There was no shame in what we did, everyone did it where I grew up.  No remorse for the rooster who was raised to be butchered, no guilt for the butcher.  Hunting served a purpose there was no shame in setting out for a day afield, no malicious intent on the part of the hunter.  Contrary to what some may think the farmer does not hate the rooster, the hunter does not loathe the hunted.

Today.....

As far as the majority of society is concerned drumsticks come from a drumstick bush, hand picked at the peak of ripeness when the celophane stretches tight over the pink styrofoam tray.  Those wonderful steaks pumped out of a Steak-O-Rator 9000 high speed, high volume, fully automated, production quality machine nestled in a pristine valley bathed in constant sunshine and gentle breezes.  Honestly people cant even relate to their daily meals how can you expect the same people to understand the primal nature of hunting.  They dont understand animals or farming and they certianly have no connection to nature.  They have in fact become "detatched" from the lifestyle and from the land.  

For better or worse hunters and hunting have been driven to the point of being little more than a niche group participating in a niche activity.  I wont point fingers at conservation groups or televised hunting or leases..... (insert typical divisional rhetoric here) all of them are simply attempts by, for the most part,  good people to preserve their hunting heritage.  Even if some are misguided at times.

I would like to, at the risk or launching into the afore mentioned diatribe, point out that the second biggest threat to our hunting heritage in my opinion is division.  I may not always agree with the way other people hunt but so long as it is within the confines of the law I will support their right to do so.  I may not choose to hunt with them or around them but I support their choice to hunt they way they do.  I refuse to be divided from my fellow hunters, trappers, fishermen and outdoorsmen.  What they loose is what we loose. I will not stand against them even if they stand against me in some misguided attempt to better their own position.  Next time you pass a "Wheelie Guy" or a "Gun Hunter" do not turn your nose up at them, tip you hat instead and bid them good hunting.  Who knows the trend could catch on.

Well thats probably my $.02 and some change to boot.

As others have said "we are" the biggest threat. The anti hunters are a small minority and like most issues the vast majority fall somewhere in the "indifferent" middle ground. Any time a "hunter" shoots a cow, someones house / dog / goat and the local paper runs a front page story about it the "silent majority" has another exposure to "hunting" and what "hunters" are all about. Also, how many of us go out of our way to invite someone who we know doesn't hunt / or maybe hasn't hunted in years along to go hunting with us? Lots of small things we could do to expose people to what hunting is really about. But most people just don't get it and probbably never will and that's ok too. We just don't want them turning into an "anti-hunting voting block!"

I think the media, the anti-hunting groups, and generally liberal trends in modern America have subtly made the concept of hunting to be less attractive and "natural" than it was in my younger years. Moreover, it is just not considered to be politically correct. Add to that the tendency to be less active due to television and computer games.  In short, more and more people are just plain scared to get out of sight of the pavement. There is just less interest overall in doing "outdoor stuff".

First and foremost, to the question at hand, the threat to hunting is and has always been hunters. For many reasons, be it the negative images stereotypical poachers, kill at all cost types or devisive infighting or many of the other topics discussed. BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS IF MORE HUNTERS PASSED THIS TRADITION ON, NOT JUST TO YOUR OWN KIDS, there would not be a problem. the reality is many people are disconnected, is this their fault if no one took the time to take them hunting and teach them the love of the outdoors.

And Second, This is not a LIBERAL vs CONSERVATIVE issue. this is a RURAL vs URBAN issue. I WILL REMIMD YOU THAT SOME OF THESE THREATS COME FROM REPUBLICANS FROM ILLINOIS.

So get involved. take a youth hunting and/or fishing.  your future depends on it .

Apathy.
That and too many of US fall prey to the divide and conquer agenda and methods of the anti-hunters.

b.glass has a good point

I address this everyday in my life work.  

It is a world view (philosophical idea about all of life) that is based in the beginning premise that all that exists is matter, "something comes from nothing."  This ends in relativism.  This leads to ideologies such as socialism and naturalism. In the end, there is not only a loss of truth and the sanctity of human beings, but animals are elevated to a position higher than man.  Oppression has ALWAYS been the result. (200,000,000 people exterminated in the last century alone due to this wrongful idea). It is predictable, and I fear, already upon us unless people change their fundamental understanding about the origin of man, destiny, morality, and purpose.

Animals rights, loss of good land use, loss of tradition, etc. are ALL the result of this issue.  Anything else is simply dealing with the symptom, not the source.

Dan in KS

QuoteOriginally posted by mwmwmb:
This is not a LIBERAL vs CONSERVATIVE issue.

Indeed.  It's a peculiarity of our two-party system that everything has to be sorted on one side or the other (I forget, is cake or pie conservative?  'Cause you know they have to be one or the other.), even though those long lists of things often have nothing to do with each other.

I'm not a liberal, I'm a leftist - for some of my reasons, see my post earlier in this thread.  I hunt every year.  My wife is a liberal, and while she doesn't hunt (she'd rather not see anything suffering), she thinks it's the moral way to get meat, and she'll go out of her way to do what she can to help.  Her cousin, a liberal and an environmental scientist, hunts every year.  Her best friend's husband, a lefty and a math teacher, hunts every year.

I've let it be known to all my "lefty" friends that anytime they want to discuss my hunting, I'd be happy to.  I've had plenty of conversations, and all of them went well.  A few of the moral vegetarians disagree with me, and I accept that, because they have their ethical code and are living by it, and the world could probably use more compassion in it and not less.  The rest of them are completely fine with my hunting and fishing, and relish it when I bring them a backsteak or two.  A few of them are even making noises about joining me next year.

I'm not perfect, God knows, and I could do more.  But that's one way to start turning things around.  Pointing fingers, demonizing other people, and waxing poetic about the evils of liberalism or whatever does no one any good.  It's lazy thinking.

My two sawbucks.

1)Ignorant/arrogant people

2)loss of habitat ( see #1)

Kids growing up without any connection to the outdoors, farming, etc.  This has dire consequences for us hunters and us as a society.  Today, a parent has to make a major effort to go to a shooting range to intro his kids to guns or bows.  He has to take his kids to a zoo or a farm to show them animals or livestock.

Back in the day, more of us grew up on farms or atleast could walk down the road a bit to hunt rabbits or ride horses or go fishing or snoop around in a marsh.  We grew up around animals and knew that meat came from livestock.  THAT is not within reach of most kids today and we are surely losing something because of it.

I think overall it is overpopulation by humans.  In essence, not enough land to support everyone who wants to hunt.

NINTENDO............the kids that ought to be outside now and tagging along with us won't get off the nintendo games. Heck, I am 48 and in the summer I'm the only kid outside. My boys did alright on that until they caught their first whiffs of perfume and gas. Sure hope they come back someday.

first ammo, then firearms-how far behind can we be?

sometimes we have to ask ourselves what are we doing to premote youth hunting ? my wife is a teacher and I told her right away my sons will miss school to go hunting at frist she said like hell they will.It was then I unleashed a flurry of reasons why they WILL miss school for this event.she now thinks schools should be closed for atleast 1-day.hunter safty-3-d shoots are a few ways of showing our youth the way.If every hunter took 1 kid hunting we would nothave this problem

Delaware, State Employee

I buy/protect land for wildlife habitat and public hunting.  The protected land is still privately owned, but it can never grow houses.  Most of the purchased land is open to public hunting.

My sister-in-law is a PETA person.  To her I'm a a murderer because I hunt.  She cannot, or will not, accept that I am a nature lover or that I only kill animals that are legal game and eat what I shoot (my wife also eats whatever I drag home).  I catch snakes and relocate them where they aren't scaring my wife, I feed the birds and squirrels and I love to photograph nature.  She can't comprehend that one can love nature and still hunt.

Our problems as I see them:

1. underutilization of public hunting lands.  a fair amount of our land gets little use.  Our legislators see this and question why we need to protect any more since what we own isn't being used.  Some have even proposed selling public lands.  Many of us hunt only on leased land.  
2.  slob hunters/dirt-bags.  There are still too many "hunters" who trespass, shoot from roads, shoot out of season or at night, dump carcasses beside the road or on "unowned" land.  Turn them in when you see them.
3.  positive hunter's image.  We need to be sure we present a positive image to the non-hunter, those people who aren't for or against hunting.  The anti-hunters will never agree with us anymore than we'll ever agree with them, we can't convert PETA types.
4.  our physical appearance.  Don't go into the store for a drink if you're bloody from a field dressing job.  Don't go into the liquor store/bar with your hunting clothes on (the hunters=drunks syndrome).  Camo isn't a fashion statement.  There are lots of non-hunting people we don't want to be lumped with who wear camo.
5.  youth involvement.  Try to get schools involved in the National Archery in the Schools Program (they have a website).  The program calls for wheelie bows (fingers, no sights, no letoff), but the kids learn archery fundamentals, proper form, and it should be an easy migration to traditional.
6.  state hunting agencies.  Learn about them, try to help them, support them.  They have a tough job.  The legislators who control the purse strings also have constituents who are anti-hunters.  Politicians are more interested in votes than science.  They will support the largest voter pool (my sister-in-law's HSUS group endorsed Obama simply because he vowed to get a dog from a shelter and supported a few of their programs, no other reason).
7.  horn hunting exclusively.  Most states have a deer population problem.  Horn hunting doesn't reduce the population.  Shoot at least one anterless deer for each set of horns you take.  
8.  be open minded.  Not every stick and string shooter is a tradionalist and not every gun or wheelie bow hunter is a non-traditionalist.  sometimes the biggest difference in us is our choice of weapon. They may have never been exposed to a a longbow.  Many of them are ripe for the converting.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
us.

I've been telling people for 20 years that our fate as hunters rests not with the anti's, but with the vast pool of people in the middle that neither hunt nor care for the rhetoric of the "save the whales nuke the Republicans no nukes don't wear fur down with hunting fishing hurts eat tofu" crowd- and if we don't win them over we're doomed.

Winning them over means we have to show them we are more than beer drinking' rebel flag toting night shining over the limit kill at all costs yahoos. Not sure that's possible any more.

100 yard shots at elk with a bow trumps all the good a bunch of people can do. A picture in the paper of a goose with a field point tipped arrow sticking out of its neck is worth 10,000 guys doing it the hard way. A guy on TV saying "I do it the hard way" and then proceeding to take 40 yard running shots at caribou works out to about a million hours of "good efforts" by the rest of hunters...so I'm not sure it can happen.

Couldn't agree more!! I've said this for a long time myself.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wary Buck:
Kids growing up without any connection to the outdoors, farming, etc.  This has dire consequences for us hunters and us as a society.  Today, a parent has to make a major effort to go to a shooting range to intro his kids to guns or bows.  He has to take his kids to a zoo or a farm to show them animals or livestock.

Back in the day, more of us grew up on farms or at least could walk down the road a bit to hunt rabbits or ride horses or go fishing or snoop around in a marsh.  We grew up around animals and knew that meat came from livestock.  THAT is not within reach of most kids today and we are surely losing something because of it.

Another excellent post!!

Quote originally posted by Llyr:

"Pointing fingers, demonizing other people, and waxing poetic about the evils of liberalism or whatever does no one any good. It's lazy thinking."

I couldn't agree more.  The notion that the world or this country is going to hell in a bucket because of "liberals" or "socialists" is as misleading as the notion that it's going to hell because of "conservatives" or "right wingers."  

I used to think I was a conservative, defined as someone who is in favor of change but only when it's been thought through enough that we know it's progress and not just change.  Then "conservative" seemed to become "no change at all - if Reagan didn't endorse it is's evil."  So, without changing my view of such things very much I found myself becoming a liberal/leftist.  

Whichever, what I've really found is that you don't have to agree with somebody on everything to have common ground and work together.   To preserve hunting, and the outdoor way of life, we have to work with other types of hunters and other non-hunters to find that common ground in which "you're wrong" becomes "you and I do things differently but there's room for both ways, so let's work on what matters to both of us and stop fighting about how we're different."

QuoteOriginally posted by Llyr:
It's a peculiarity of our two-party system that everything has to be sorted on one side or the other (I forget, is cake or pie conservative?  'Cause you know they have to be one or the other.), even though those long lists of things often have nothing to do with each other.
......
I'm not perfect, God knows, and I could do more.  But that's one way to start turning things around.  Pointing fingers, demonizing other people, and waxing poetic about the evils of liberalism or whatever does no one any good.  It's lazy thinking.

It's not lazy thinking, it's simply a matter of fact (at least, in my area). While there may be a very, very small number who can support a "liberal agenda"  and hunting, that is where it ends. You are most assuredly in the minority. In the Atlanta area, if you asked 100 people that affiliated themselves as "left" what they thought about hunting you'd get a 90%+ negative reaction and the exact opposite  from those that affiliated themselves as "right" (or at least a vast majority of positive comments. I did this as a psych research project when I was in college). In other major metropolitan areas, where many of America's policies and media broadcasted "values" originate, I'd bet that number would be much higher.

I think it is very much a liberal vs. conservatism or an "us vs. them". Simply because anytime a collective group wants to take something away from me to give to someone else, is diametrically opposed to something I think is good/right/just, in whatever fashion that may be, takes every opportunity to dilute/destroy the values that this country was founded on, it most definitely polarizes. While there may be a small minority who can be both "left" and "pro-hunting" that number is overwhelmed by those within that "party" who are purposefully doing everything possible to eliminate it. Present company of those who are "left" and pro-hunting here accepted, but again, I think you are mere drops of oil in an ocean of water that is the overall liberal agenda. A few good apples in a barrel of rotten ones does not a good barrel make.

Point out just one conservative that is a rabid anti-hunting, anti-gun etc....while I would need a calculator to keep track of the "liberals" in power (either directly or indirectly) that are.

He asked what I thought was the greatest danger to hunting. The danger to hunting is a mere symptom of a far deeper, more deadly problem: the destruction of many things (and not just hunting) that I hold dear by one specific segment of our population. While you may see "those long lists of things often have nothing to do with each other" I see the exact opposite: they are completely interrelated and intertwined with each other.

By the way, it depends on what kind of pie/cake. If it's my grandma's fried apple/peach pie, it's definitely conservative. New York style Cheesecake....do you even have to ask?    ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by dragon rider:
Whichever, what I've really found is that you don't have to agree with somebody on everything to have common ground and work together.   To preserve hunting, and the outdoor way of life, we have to work with other types of hunters and other non-hunters to find that common ground in which "you're wrong" becomes "you and I do things differently but there's room for both ways, so let's work on what matters to both of us and stop fighting about how we're different."

Oh I wish it were that simple. But how do you "work together" when one wants something the other is not willing to give up? In many of these areas, there simply is no middle ground. Neither is willing to budge because of what they believe. I'll not give up my hunting (or add another object here) and they won't stop trying to take if from me...sadly, there is no room for "working together."

US!!!!!! Short and sweet. If we as a majority/minority let our tradition die, then we are the only ones to blame.

Mike

It seems that there is too much money to be made in the hunting world, (see Cabela's, Bass Pro, Gander Mt...), for the anti-hunting group to really do too much harm. Or the government for that matter.

Finding a place to hunt where you aren't going to be harassed by other hunters because you are too close to thier hunting area? Now that can be a challenge. I'm tempted sometimes to offer to pay someone to let me hunt on their property. I've been trying for ten years to teach myself to turkey hunt. Why is it taking so long? I don't have access to turkeys without being drawn unless I travel 2-3 hrs away. As a full-time working Mom that really limits your time in the field.

So, loss of habitat, not enough hunting area for those that want to hunt = hunter vs hunter, property owners that won't let you on their property to retrieve your animal,...

The Big Tent Theory

Hunters are the biggest threat to hunting...we are our own worst enemy.

too much technology

Trophy hunting (aka, antler worshipping)

All of us,

Here is a few of my thoughts.......

In my lifetime I saw kids in school who talked excitedly about hunting seasons and flocked to the woods or fields on weekends to small game hunt.  They would ride bikes from town just for a chance at a squirrel. Back then habitat was plentyfull and folks with hunting land let folks hunt without suspicion, or lease agreements.  

There was a time not long before I was born that bowhunting was considered ineffective or cruel.  Guys like Glen St. Charles Fred bear and a host of who's who in archery and bowhunting worked hard to put bowhunting up front and accepted as a humane and sporting means to take game.  We have seasons now because of these guys.  

In the 70's We saw "The Guns of Autum" an anti hunting slam narrated by none other than.....Dan Rather.  Never the less I see the anti's loosing ground because of the fact that when there is money to be made from hunters, It will stomp out the anti ahunting genda.  

Wow!! now look at bowhunting.  TV shows, guys with an almost Rock Star status.  Hunting shows with rock music playing so loud during the show that you can't even here any nature sounds.  People standing in line for autographs from these guys.  

All the attention to hunting has created a feeding frenzy on the latest bag your trophy buck, earn your manhood,equipment.  Then there's the prime hunting land gobbled up by "I got mine, keep out" people.  

Who could blame em.  The united states is getting crowded.  Let's make ethanol in Iowa.  There goes the wood lots, bulldosed down for a few more acres of corn.  

How about the DNR. "You guys need to kill more does, and by God your going to pay dearly for each one of them.  I don't really think they want all the extra deer killed, they just want to sell the tags.

And finaly there is us traditional guys.  We're looking for something that has been lost and trying to pass it on to our Kids.  We're a mixture of modern and old ways.  We see our days afield as precious and limited.  

Yeah someday hunting will shrink away to what ever huntable land is left and to whoever can afford to either buy it or travel to it.

Boy I've opened the worm can.............

Lets enjoy what we have today.  Sip life slow. Try not to accelerate the inevitable.

LPM,
You hit the nail on the head. I have lived all my life in N.J. and it is no different here.

#1 - Hunter Apathy.

#2 - Generation Asterisk. This is the immediate gratification and gratification at any costs mentality that has led to steroids in high school sports, crossbows in archery, etc...the cheapening of sport in order to get the prize.

#3 - The hunting INDUSTRY.

In my mind, this is a very close race so don't pick on the order they're in up there.  ;)

Thought I would bring this one back up.  I really enjoy reading peoples thoughts on this subject.  

I also thought their might be some that did not ever get to see this thread, and might like to read or comment on it.

Our liberal Society

Hunter's fighting with other hunter's over technique's!!!!

Population and habitat loss and the lack of trust in others & PETA.

Living in eastern WA. is a slower pace of life but that is changing as every one is moving this way and cutting up land into 5 acre lots.

Natural, non-human, predators.

Birth control.(and for you skeptics, it wasn't too many generations ago when some one said"If man were meant to fly, he would have been born with wings.")

I still say our biggest threat (to hunting and just about every other aspect of our lives that could be described as freedom) is riiiiiight here:

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff187/GingivitisKahn/410196982_cf66cb0b9d.jpg)

Our nation needs to keep its jerks under better control.

Overpopulation.  It is the problem everytwhere.  More people, = less land = more dumba****** = more regulation.  As popultaion grows opportunity decreases and over time so do hunter #'s eventually we will loose our hunting like all the other overpopulated areas of the world.  Thwo in wanting to lett 20 million illegals get to stay for free and count it as gone!  Enjoy it while you can.

1.) The hunting industry.

2.) Turning hunting into a "gotta PAY big bucks to play" game with tags in some states priced beyond reach of working people.

3.) People with the title "wildlife biologist" who get a teflon career in state game and fish departments and happen to be rapidly anti-hunting.

4.) Urban sprawl. Too many prime hunting lands are now under concrete or soon to be the next set of McMansions.

5.) Game ranches and jetsetters. These folks "hunt" but really have no interest in the general public being able to hunt---they've got theirs.

Just my opinion, but I think the biggest threat is the lack of access for the average income guy, for that matter, even guys with upper average incomes are starting to have trouble affording the leasing fees/ranch fees being asked.  In south Florida (where I live), leases are going for 5 grand and up per year!  Not too many average folks who can afford that that I know of!  and yes, we have state land, which is great, but it's a quota based hunt on most wma's, so if you don't hit the lottery that year, your stuck either travelling out of state, or crowding onto the wma's that don't require quota's.  I'm just afraid that if this gets to be the norm, guys will stop buying tags because why bother.  The wealthy are only a small percentage of the hunting population, if they're the only one's left buying tags, then who's left to fight for the right to hunt in the first place?  The anti's aren't going to back down or become less in numbers as far as I can tell.. hunting as recreation will have a hard time fighting for itself and I could see the end of public hunting as we know it, maybe not in my lifetime, but I think certainly my son's.  I hope not.  The hunting industry/media is shooting itself in my opinion.  Sorry for rambling, I just have strong feelings about this.

I completely agree, Mike. Elk tags here are getting beyond the affordability range of people who can't front the cash.

In your opinion, what is the most significant threat to hunting today? Think big, think hard.


I would like to add that in our lifetime we have seen the people of America, the greatest nation in the world, move from farming to city living. In tne 1950's 80% of our population lived or worked on farms and about 20% lived in the citys. That number has turned around to where only about 10% of the people live and work on farms or related work. We have taken our kids out of the country and that way of life. I raised my son in the woods and can tell you that he knows what a trap line is and hunts almost too much. We need to start spending time teaching kids that a drive by is when you drive by a field and see what is in it. That the hood is something you put on your scope to keep it dry when it rains. We are our own biggest treat to hunting because we don't take the time to show our young the way of our fathers. I agree with everything I have read and just wanted to add my 2 cents worth. I would challenge you to introduce a kid to our world this year. Take them hunting and show him how to shoot a bow. This time will be paid back to 10 fold.

Rookie@51
Your right about bringing kids into hunting. I have done it; and its quite rewarding.

But as I read over the comments again; I started thinking about what friends have said is the reason they stopped hunting; or don't hunt as often.
Its accessibility. Public lands are full of conflicts; and private lands have 'no hunting' signs everywhere; and more and more private land is being leased for hunting.

How does the average Joe or Josephine overcome that reality?

throw in the high cost of tags; and the big tent theory - and people wanting instant results for their money and taking that route to 'success'; and the bad turn hunting shows are taking ( not in the hunt; but in the impact of the arrow; the blood gushing out and the very sought after picture of the deer falling in camera range).

Not things we are doing....

You know what.....there's a LOT of legitimate concerns listed on these 9 pages. I for one, worry about a number of them. A huge concern is the anti's.....and their spawn. They can eventually worm their way into positions of influence. On the up side....hunting is, in itself a monstrous cash cow.  The amount of money spent in the USA every year by hunters is staggering. Don't think that goes unnoticed by the weasel politicians.

I've found that many antis go off of the images of the slob hunters they see in their community. Granted, you've got those wackadoos that would genetically alter cougars to eat lettuce if they thought they could get away with it. But the very best thing to use against antis is by being ourselves---ethical hunters. To be able to do that, we need to be able to hunt. For me, for example, I can't afford elk tags in this state and certainly don't have the money to hunt out of state. So, the elk tags go to who can afford them---and not always the most ethical hunters.

I read a good quote by a hunter that basically said we don't need MORE hunters we need BETTER hunters (he was speaking in terms of ethics.)I would also add to that to say we need affordable hunting so this isn't a "King's deer" kind of sport.

I'll agree with we NEED better hunters and more space to live our lifestyle.

Those two things not withstanding; THE biggest threat to hunting is US.

We get on a website such as Tradgang and whine, moan, groan and complain to the choir!

IMHO, WE as hunters must be involved in groups that stand for our constitution and heritage. If, not us then who will? We are the ones who know the truth. We are the ones whom can tip the scales. We are the that maintain, use and protect the resources of our hunting traditions.

If, we sit back and allow the "experts" to control the conversation; then as the recipients of their "knowledge" and "benevolence", we should not complain about the meagerness of the outcome.

Doubt what I'm saying? Would you stand by and listen to a welfare recipient complain that you don't give enough? Would you sit still as an offspring told you how stingy you were?

I highly doubt that you would do either of the above! Knowing that you would defend your equipment choice vehemently; I believe you will fight if, backed into a corner. So, why not about your hunting or hunting lifestyle; in the policy debate?

I'll willingly hear someone else's side but, I will maintain that WE the People are our own worst enemy. We elect the ones who raise the price of a tag, raise a fee, cordon off wilderness, usurp private property, and WE the People are the base line mechanism to change the outcome!

Sunstien the regulatory czar in a speach at harvard said how he plans to eliminate hunting and firearms in 3 years.  It may be a distraction to get the country fighting so they can take the heat off their other scams.  I do feel that paid access hunting has reduced the numbers in many areas.  Ex hunters will not fight to save our rights even if they agree with them. Putting a high price tag on hunting makes it exclusive for some and impossible for many.  If it simply not worth it to be a regular hunter, it is simply not worth the political fight that I fear is coming to save it.  I would like to see some bigger names out in the media and public that could increase access and help increase our numbers and still allow us all some elbow room, but I doubt that a ted Nugent is likely to pick up that banner any time soon, even though I know that he is in favor of more access and freer, dollar wise, relations with land owners.

QuoteOriginally posted by GMMAT:
Ignorant hunters.

I live in NC.

Ignorant hunters, who think there's no way our way of life can be taken from us.....are betting their grandkids heritage.  If we fail to project a positive image of our pursuits (by our selfish; illegal; unethical and greedy actions), our hunting lands will continue to be bought up by people who simply won't allow hunting.  I see it happening, here, a little.  When I was grwoing up.....EVERYONE hunted or let hunters use their property.  Now....not so much.  Why???

We're gonna cut our own throats, if we're not careful......and we'll bleed out, slowly.

I couldn't agree with you more.  Ignorant hunters that project a negative image are the biggest threat to hunting.  

We have the same type of things happening here in southern Ohio.  People who used to let anyone hunt won't allow anyone now because some sorry s.o.b. had to go and do something stupid that turned the property owner against letting people hunt.  People around here have done things to ruin hunting grounds that range from littering to things that I won't even put out in public for the anti's to get ahold of.  Tresspassing is a big problem now too, landowners are tired of running off people they don't let hunt so they figure that it's easier to just keep everyone off.  Of course you seem to always have the guy who had permission and decided that meant he could bring all his buddies, we all know how that goes.  

I apologize, this is a sore subject with me, I didn't mean to rant or accidently climb on my soap box.  Seriously though if all hunters don't start to worry about the sport as a whole hunters are going to be what ends hunting for all.  

Ignorance . . .

Ignorance is a biggie, not only within ourselves but outside the outdoorsman community.  I think the way I was raised will do me good, I have grown up with a father that has been into the outdoors since he was in his 20's and a mother that had never camped untill she met my father.  So I have to be mindfull of everything I do.  

Now granted, things are a tiny bit different now.  I had a deer hide dryin in the house the other day, and she didnt like it but she didnt care.  A couple years ago that wouldnt have worked out, lol

So I think we need to be mindful towards the non-hunting community.  

HOWEVER, they also need to be mindful of us.  I think of our "sport" as a way of life.  If someone hated me because of hunting, or took it away it would be like taking away a car from a non-hunter.  It just wouldnt fly.  

They simply dont understand, we dont have advertizing campaigns to inform the public like PETA does.  Mabye we should.  All of my mothers side thinks that trapping is cruel.  It is only cruel if you dont know what you are doing.  If it is done right, it is very humane.  

Anyway-  Thats all I have to say about that  :biglaugh:

Loss of land access to hunters for various reasons. I feel present leasing of land in the long run will reduce the ability to hunt for many. I am not opposed to leasing as in many cases it is quite understandable from the land owners view. Possibly the way properties are being leased may need to be changed. I do not believe that excessive leasing charges are good for the future of the average income hunter.

television, and I actually thought that before reading Shaun's post!

Others have touched on this- we as a nation have just moved too far from the land. Too many people are growing up on concrete, and don't have a real grasp of how the natural world works. My generation (I'm 61) still lived by growing and killing their food, or had close relatives that did. Now too many people never see a chicken's head chopped off, or a hog shot between the eyes with a .22, or milked a cow, or planted a garden, so that they and their families could eat. When meat comes from a store instead of our own actions, how can the average person that has never been exposed to the reality truly understand that we must kill to eat, even if it's done for us by someone else?

And then there are those TV shows...

"hunters attacking hunters"

If you don't agree with a LEGAL hunting season, or what weapon is allowed to be utilized to hunt with, and you "attack" a fellow hunter, because he/she hunts with a (fill in the blank) YOU are one of the biggest problems.

When "big brother" succeeds in "removing" rifles/shotguns/handguns/crossbows/compound bows/trad bows/atlatls etc from the "legal" list of "authorized weapons," then "big brother" will start on the "next" weapon that THEY will outlaw.

If you give them a foot in the door, soon that "door" will be kicked completely off its hinges.

Fewer places to hunt. But, hunting is in better shape these days than in the recent past as part of our culture even though hunter numbers have declined. However, hunter numbers are going to rebound. I know why and I'm not posting in a public forum.

Outfitters in my area. My grandpa is a farmer and when someone offers him more money than what the ground makes, it's hard to turn down. I can't blame him though. Farming is tough.

Most significant threat to hunting?

PROFIT$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Gilbert

Government is usually the problem to most things, it's best when it's too small to get in the way.

Hunters that don't work hard to preserve their rights are their own worst enemy.

There are obviously threats from several directions.

We've moved from a rural society to an urban/suburban society.

Our hunter demographics are graying with the baby boomers and fewer and fewer youth's are getting into the sport.
There are several reasons for that too, kids growing up in cities and concrete suburbs are one. Computers and the structured activities from urban/suburban life is another.

But to me, the biggest threat in the present and future is not nearly enough hunters understand that "WE" ARE the "game" managers. We are the final line of defense, and ironically, offense.

In the real modern world, hunting can no longer be viewed as a self centered pursuit where one expects state natural resources/game agencies to "get off my back/just let me hunt/don't tell me what I can't shoot".

We're going to have to understand that specific regulations will be needed for specific management goals. And even more so as land becomes more fractured and hunter numbers drop due to aging/less recruitment.

We need to work WITH state agencies, not against them. It's popular on some websites to be against state DNR's on everything. This is actually anti-hunting.

Wildlife biologists are not our enemy. If anything, they are a neglected ally that far too many have used as whipping boys for decades.

The bottom line is, if we don't work hand in hand with state agencies, and craft future regulations that both accomplish management goals and that are palatable to the majority of hunters, state agencies will look elsewhere, away from hunters, to accomplish those goals.

Take deer hunting for example. In many area's across the Midwest, deer herd numbers are already tough to manage thru current hunting rules. If we lose another 30% of our hunters to aging over the next 15 years, the baby boomers dropping out, then managing deer herds with current rules will be impossible.

Hunters used to being able to just go shoot any buck they see will have to adapt. In the not too distant future, like 10-15 years out, things like even far more antlerless tags, more antlerless seasons, antler restrictions, one buck a year, maybe earn a buck, maybe late summer archery openers, etc, will be the rules in nearly every major whitetail state.

Hunters need to understand this and be a part of crafting the rules too. Not merely sitting on the sidelines and complaining about everything state DNR's do.

Another concern, at least here in northern Michigan, is the number of both non-hunters AND hunters who do not like to see logging being done.

That's bad news. Whitetail deer are the #1 big game animal in the USA. But deer are creatures of "the edge" and newer growth. Old growth forests are great for red squirrels and some owls.

The area I hunt is a wooded, rural, "traditional deer camp" area. Yet, I'm amazed by the amount of people that own wooded land only for deer hunting who totally dislike logging and/or clear cuts.

Habitat is the key to "game animals". That's why anti groups like the Sierra Club have a backdoor agenda to slowly choke hunting off by slowing choking of game animal habitat, thus having few "game animals", thus the need for hunting as a management tool.

A MDNR deer biologist once told me that "the best deer management tool is the chainsaw". I agree 100%.

So if you hunt in area's of larger tracts of timber, do everything you can to promote the idea of logging to all your hunting buddies.

Logging is the future to good deer, grouse and rabbit habitat.

In Montana, it is loss of access, while there are many reasons, leases seem to be one of the worst, as they make it harder for game agencies to manage wildlife.

Loss of habitat and the many issues creating the cost of hunting to slowly become out of reach for the average hunter. We will choke ourselves out of hunting mainly due to greed.

Hah!

There is no question in my mind, the most imminent threat to our hunting rights are the self righteous, highly "educated", leftist, elitist, intelligencia who think they know better than we, how best to live our lives.

It has been the bitter history of mankind to see that once a ruling class dominates a political climate, rights of all types associated with the personal ownership of weapons first becomes restricted and then banned. Along the way, public use of wildlife recourses becomes a thing of the past. The current trend is restriction in the name of the ethical treatment of animals added to our society's ability to provide physical sustenance via the supermarket.

Of course, the intelligencia will always able to arm themselves and more importantly have personnel surrounding them with weaponry. Should they desire, ample opportunity is always provided for private hunts (in the name of conservation).

Those who would sacrifice the Second Amendment because they feel they are not directly affected need only look to history to see how when another's ox is gored, the blood eventually runs to our own front door.

I forgot to subscribe. These issues are near and dear to me so I want to see what the rest of the world has to say.
K

Konrad, first, I'm in favor of ethical treatment of animals. That we eat them does not give us the excuse to treat them as less than fellow living beings.

Yeah, a lot of people trumpeting the Second Amendment also sat on their fat keesters while the Fourth and Fifth Amendments were trashed in the name of "national security", too.

Thing is, Konrad, I know you don't like the "Left", but the "Right" ain't so hot, either. People like Francisco Franco, Augusto Pinochet, and others were not paragons of liberty. The "Right" also thinks they know better than everyone how they should live their lives. As in who they can marry, for instance. Or where and how they worship and to what religion they ought to belong. Or where they can build their house of worship. Or whether they can at all.

And don't be so quick to smear being "educated". Knowledge is power. Being ignorant is not noble.

The problem with folks on the far "Right" and "Left" is they both espouse their divine knowledge of how better to live my life than I.
You will find similar atrocities throughout history by both groups. In reality, their objective has always been the acquisition and maintenance of power

I have never derided real world knowledge. My issues arise with those who have never had to earn a living by the sweat of their brow and then attempt to legislate "proper" behavior based on their "standard". Incidentally, that standard is rarely used by those same people in their own lives.

It seems to me those who so loudly decry the abuses of power and the rending of the Constitution only raise their voices when it suits their cause. Where is the ACLU when you need them? Why do they always side with those who would see the weakening of America?

In defense of true Conservatives, there has never been any debate of whether one should belong to this or that or even any religious group.

While the Second Amendment may be the "second", all others exist because the Second does.

As far as respect for wildlife goes, I have never abused any of God's creation be it insect, fish, plant or otherwise. I consider myself a steward of His gifts and as such will be held accountable for judgments made in this life.

Oh, sorry, I brought up that God thing didn't I?

You see what I mean?
I wasn't trying to be offensive. I was explaining my position. I wasn't, by default, trying to proselytize, persuade or persecute.

Konrad said:
"In defense of true Conservatives, there has never been any debate of whether one should belong to this or that or even any religious group."

Oh, really? Then who are those guys out there protesting because some Muslims want to build a mosque near where the World Trade Center was? And, I might add, there is a strip club just as close to the WTC site as the mosque will be. Seems to me there's a First Amendment that says they can. But to certain people, that only applies to people of their own religion.

Konrad said:
"Oh, sorry, I brought up that God thing didn't I?"

So, once again you assume something. You assume I must be an atheist. Well, no. I'm actually polytheistic. I believe in God plural---Gods. My point, Konrad, is you tend to go on preconceived notions---stereotypes---regardless of the way you lectured me about your debate skills some time back. To you, all liberals are college professors that never, as you said here, "...had to earn a living by the sweat of their brow." Once again, a stereotype. I could go on to make some stereotypes about the protest signs I see at Tea Parties being consistantly spelled woefully wrong. Would you like that? I bet not.  

And, no, the rest of the Bill of Rights exists not because of the Second Amendment, but because the Founders wrote it that way, we won the Revolutionary War (with a lot of aid from France, by the way), we had a Civil War, and a Supreme Court rules on the issues. There has not been an instance of an armed civilian populace beating back an invasion by some dictatorial horde bent on wiping mom, apple pie, and Chevrolets off the face of America. The government does not fear your personal firearms. Did you see them fear the better-armed (than American civilians) Afghan civilians enough to not invade Afghanistan? And Afghan civilians give out RPG-7s as party favors in Afghanistan. World War Two was won by mechanized armies being supplied by heavy industry, not grandad and his brothers armed with fowling pieces.

Just one final note. Your sig line, "The Constitution is not a Suicide Pact"? Guess who said that? A liberal in favor of gun control, referring to the Second Amendment and why it should be altered to disallow certain firearms.

Coputer games and television!

animal activist

folks who believe government is the answer to every issue/problem.

And pseudo-intellectuals.

My aging knees.

Strip malls, housing developement, urban sprawl in general. Kinda sad, my wife and I moved to the "country " 17 yrs. ago and since then its being so built around us that its really not "country" anymore....Phil

Lazy people who believe that hunting is buy the stuff, go shoot it, score it, hang it and sell the story for endorsements.

The relentless and driving force to keep people in apathy and easily molded and controlled.

lack of access kids just cant go out the door and wander with a bow like I could as a kid..and I was a kid on the South side of Chicago and still could do it without being hasseled.

Now a swat team would probably show up

Bobman,

When I was growing up in Houston, my mother would holler "You kids get your butts outside". The house was about a quarter of a mile from Buffalo Bayou (a small river by any standards). That is where I spent a lot of my time. Cruising "The Woods", trying to kill snakes and other vermin and generally terrorizing anything that got in my way. The Woods stretched far enough that I could not walk the length or breadth in one day. Dinner has always had a strong leash on my wanderings.

Of course, I went armed to the teeth with at least one knife, sometimes a machete and always my trusty Ben Person 20 pound recurve. It was a thing of beauty to behold. It was the sexiest thing an eleven-year-old could get his hands on. And of course, there were the obligatory cedar arrows. I only carried two while in the field. There never seemed to be enough money for a quiver. At the time I was getting 25 cents allowance every two weeks so I would wade through fire to retrieve one of those arrows.

I was never approached by a drug dealer, pervert or any other grown up while in The Woods over the course of nine years.

Some years later, a friend of mine and I went to visit my mother, still living in the same area. We went down to the edge of the woods and started shooting our compounds across a ditch and into the far bank (you know, those wheelie thingies) and within the hour we were visited by the Houston Police Dept...with weapons drawn.

"It is against the law to discharge a weapon that will shoot a projectile over 300 feet."
Heck, even my 20 pound recurve from way-back would shoot well beyond 300 feet.

How will the kids ever know the joys of freedom and self reliance if they are only allowed to sit in front of a television?

yep thats been my experince as well kids can't be kids today and its a shame

I blame a lot of it on us because the horn fever stuff is what drives all the leasing and kids get shut out, if they never develop the hunting desire as youngsters they probably never will

"We" are the main responsibles to maintain the hunting right, the hunting places, the hunting game, and the hunting soul... so, we are the main threat to hunting... Forget your obligation of doing these things the best way you can and hunting will be over, be sure.

Good Hunt.

I feel it is kid development but I feel it resides on the adults.  I understand that times have changed and the walk out the back opportunities are not there like they once were but, if anyone here is hunting/shooting then you can easily bring a child out with you.  That is why it relys on the adults.  As long as there are places to hunt/shoot we should be looking to bring as many kids out to them as possible.  It used to be that the door to the outdoors was always in front of kids.  Now we have to drive them to it.

Lack of established communities ties.  A post above talked about the days when everyone hunted - and granted permission to hunt.  My grandfather did both, but he had known the people who asked to hunt on his property for years.  Even in the good old days, "cold calling" was not likely to get you access to hunting property.  We need to cultivate real relationships with landowners with as much enthusiasm as we practice shooting or scouting.