Howdy yall, as a forester i manage several parcels of land for both timber and wildlife, and the most frequent request i get is to help the landowner get bigger deer. Why not, Illinois is the home of the giants! there is alot of money in leasing hunts, esp. if you have large bucks.
On the lands we manage we set a min. 13" inside antler spread and at least 4 points on one side. I encourage the landowner/farmers to abide by the QDM regulations. we also require that 2 does to every buck be taken. this helps with the herd population problem.
How many of you follow the QDM guidelines when you head to the woods with your trad gear? I understand it is difficult to harvest a deer with trad gear because of the limited shots available. But maybe this is a good thing, allowing hunters to focus on a good buck instead of taking anything that walks by.? and possibly taking that extra doe.
With trad gear any deer other than a button buck or spike is fair game to me but with firearms I practice doe or a buck of either 6 points or 14" spread.I have noticed a difference in buck quality on the 275 acres I hunt since I started this 4 years ago and theres not much hunting on it or the surrounding state and private land.The rutting activity is tremendous there even though it may only be a spike or a fork horn but its cool to watch those little fellows and sooner or later big daddy will be hot on the trail of a doe.I can also see myself adopting those limits with trad gear in a few more years.
Quoteallowing hunters to focus on a good buck instead of taking anything that walks by.
You're assuming that big antlers are important to everybody. Personally, and as a fellow Illinoisan, I think the hunting opportunities would be much better for the average hunter here if our bucks weren't so darn big!
Brad
I have been a member of QDMA since in begun in 1988. Joe Hamilton, the founder of QDMA, was a state biologist in coastal SC where I lived and hunted and got us into it.
At our club in GA we have practiced QDM for about 8 years now. During bow season any buck 4 points or better can be taken. During gun season, 15" inside spread, at least 4 points on one side or at least 3 1/2 years old. We can take as many does as the law allows(in GA that is 10).
We started practicing QDM to get members to study the deer before they shot. We tried to impress that we had too many does that needed thinning and that too many young bucks(1 1/2to 2 1/2yo) were being shot before they reached their potential. In the last 6 or so years we have seen more and bigger bucks, more 1 1/2 ans 2 1/2 yo bucks with good potential and there are still plenty of does for the freezer.
I agree that any deer with trad equipment is a trophy but with as many deer as there are in our woods, there is no reason to take small bucks plus for us it has really improved the herd in our area.
Our club is only 250 ac but we have convinced our neighbor that owns the 2500 ac surrounding us to require QDM for anyone that leases his farm for hunting or who is invited to hunt it for a sit or 2. Pat
QuoteHow many of you follow the QDM guidelines when you head to the woods with your trad gear?
I don't.
QuoteBut maybe this is a good thing, allowing hunters to focus on a good buck instead of taking anything that walks by.?
I'm not sure if this is a question or a statement but I'll answer anyway. I think the focus on racks as defining a good buck is counterproductive and mostly a result of marketing and our desire to shoot something bigger than the other guy. Isn't it silly to measure bucks today against bucks of the past when most of the really big-racked deer are a result of what is almost animal husbandry? Call it "Q"DM, call it trophy hunting, call it wildlife management...but the bottom line is most guys want a big deer so they can brag to their friends.
Don't get me wrong, shoot what you want. But don't judge someone else when they shoot what they want.
Respectfully yours,
John
I hunt for the joy of it and for the meat. So mostly does is what I try to take. I could care less about getting a big rack. Not that I would pass it up, but it is not my goal. I dont judge people for passing on the little ones.
I dont think traditional bowhunters as a whole would make that much of a dent in overall deer populations, so I have no problem taking what is presented.
With some areas being so overpopulated with deer, I would think just the general thinning of the herd is needed, so as not to exceed the carrying capacity of the land.
I agree with John
"Don't get me wrong, shoot what you want. But don't judge someone else when they shoot what they want."
And I did take a nice tasty doe off an overpopulated Indiana farm last year. Yum!
Quote
Don't get me wrong, shoot what you want. But don't judge someone else when they shoot what they want. [/QB]
I agree. It should be a hunters choice when he buys his license what animal he does or does not wish to take, as long as it is legal, and it should be nobody else's business.
My beef is when public ground is designated as "trophy" areas with the restrictions put in place necessary to make it so.
Keep the point restrictions, spread limits, doe before a buck, and all the other QDM tools now being used confined to private property where it belongs. QDH (quality deer hunting) does not equate to QDM for everybody.
What gets lost and twisted in so much of these QDM discussions is the original goal was to promote better herd health for all the animals. Having a good buck/doe ratio and mature animals takes a lot of stress off of the herd. Larger racks are a byproduct of such management but wasn't the main focus. Unfortunately for many it has become the only goal and in many cases so that larger dollars can be charged for hunting access.
It comes down to choice. I practice QDM, not to enhance the deer herd as much to enhance my hunting experience. I respectfully disagree that it is some bragging board driven philosophy. I just like hunting mature deer. Try shooting a 6 year old doe...she's as wary as any Booner.
I think it's an evolution for some. I started out in Tennessee when I was 10 shooting deer with rifles. I'm now 37 and have taken a dump truck full of deer in my life. I just now choose to hunt mature bucks with trad gear, passing on anything I won't put on the wall, and shooting at least 2 does a year. I have no problem with what others do, I just choose to hunt nothing but big bucks, not because I want to brag, but because it's what flips my switch. Nothing is more fun than the dance with a mature deer! Besides if you shoot the first forky that comes along you're not going to have a chance at that monster waiting in the thicket to see if the sentry made it.
I live in Pennsyltucky where QDM is a law.. Do I see bigger bucks? Nope I see bucks that are just legal.. I think qdm may work well in a enclosed area but in the real world I think it just gives the poachers a nicer deer... I cant tell you how many gunshots I heard opening day of archery season..
I have some serious problems with QDM.
Point restrictions and spread limits sound like a good idea, but along with making the average age go up, they keep all the scrub racks in the gene pool.
I support doe before a buck and wish that more states did. I do not support antler limits.
we use point restrictions to protect the gene pool. The scrub bucks may be culled at the end of the season if need be, but the areas we manage tend not to have too many that need taken care of. Who's to say that a buck with a small rack is of bad genes? I have seen some (mostly on farms) where they are small their first 2-3 years then they explode into a monster. I manage for Quality deer and better herds. Many for the people who have hired me and my bro run hunting operations where many of the deer we have managed for several years have grown into the 200"+ class range. We are talking $2000-3000/buck!!! That is alot of money, esp. if you are able to put up 12 hunters a year like 1 of the places we manage.
I am all for the challenge of passing on younger and smaller bucks, to take a mature doe with a home made bow. Knowing that in the future i will have record class deer to hunt for myself, and to lease to others to support me and the families i work for. To me, taking a record book buck with a reflex i made would be the highest achievment knowing that i was part of the equation that made the buck of that Quality.
Pintail
Pintail,
Again, with all due respect, I hope you can see that your last post is emblematic of the problem with wildlife animal husbandry. It is primarily for bragging rights for the hunter and money for the landowners.
Our hunting heritage is at the greatest risk from lack of recruitment of new hunters. This is a symptom of our culture in many ways but it is egged on by lack of hunting access, escalating cost of hunting, and the negative connotations of killing for "score". In general, turning hunting into primarily a business is wrong. It is short-sighted and selfish. In the end, the only evolution is to class-based, elitist game farms.
Peace,
John
One more thing about this and then I need to leave it alone.
If you are hunting for the challenge of killing a mature deer. Doesn't managing to increase the proportion of mature deer decrease the challenge? Where does it stop?
protecting the gene pool from what? The words "scrub bucks" and "cull" make me sick.
Call it QDM if you like, your "farming deer" for large racks and money. Antler envy..
I tend to see this in black and white in my area. Loss of habitat due to farming, urban expansion, and trophy hunting for years have decreased the occurance of large rack deer in my area. Now people hide behind QDM to grow big deer, have an excuse to shot does (like they ever needed one?) and charge large amounts of money for "their" big deer and leases.
I think QDM started out with good intentions, and in some areas they probably still are but it is mostly for "trophy" wall hanger hunting.
I know every deer i have hunted was a trophy to me whether it was a small buck, doe, or a large buck.
I'm not disrespecting anyone it's just a choice it's not for me. I'm more concerned with a clean quick kill, a memorable hunt, and even more thankful that I can hunt than I am with hanging a huge set of antlers on the wall.
I think QDM started out with good intentions and like Drew said, maybe in some areas it still works that way.
As a tool to help balance the buck to doe ratio I can see it working... initially. Letting the 1-1/2 yr olds walk has a big impact on that ratio, but so does *only* having earn-a-buck tags. Don't see many places doing that now, do we?
I tend to agree with Mr Scifres on where hunting is headed.
-Jeremy (aka the guy who spent two seasons chasing around a piebald doe)
good discussion. I'm sitting on the fence right now about QDM on my own place. I'm making some food plots, thinning some timber, and enhancing some cover, and regulating the hunting pressure. That being said, the people who do hunt my place set their own expectations, and I'm good with that. What trips my trigger may not do it for someone else. It's all good.
I can see where you all are comming from, but wouldnt hunting with trad gear-in general-force people to take does, and wait for a mature buck? To split hairs, whitetailed deer dont mature body wise until they are at least 3 1/2 years and antler maturity is between 5-7 1/2 years.
I konw in my county we have 45 deer per sq. mile when we can only support 30-35. the doe to buck ratio is roughly 8-9 does to every buck. QDM encourages landowners to bring that number down to 3/1. This allows those younger deer-not only bucks-to grow up so we can see their full potential.
Some places in Illinois(typically up north, although we need it down here) have enacted a system where a hunter must harvest his doe before they may take a buck. I like this form of management and i do belive it would do Southern Illinois wonders. By doing so, wouldnt it give the bucks a better chance of making to the next year?
QuoteOriginally posted by pintail_drake2004:
but wouldnt hunting with trad gear-in general-force people to take does, and wait for a mature buck?
Why would that be? Not meaning to pick on you or anything, just wondering as to the thought process behind that that :)
IN GENERAL, trad bow hunters have a shorter effective range, or to be more precise, hold themselves to a shorter maximum range. Seeing as how it's generally accepted that the closer you want to get to deer, the harder it gets to do it, that would 'force' the trad hunter to pass on fewer deer that are in the trad bowhunter's self-imposed max range. In other words, whatever deer offers ME a shot this year in my extremely limited time in the field is going to find itself accepting the business end of an ash arrow :)
OK, I got to lay off the cold medicine for a while.... :D
Here where I live QDM is a joke.
Education is the key. Learn to judge a deer by its age, and not just antler size.
Most landowners here have property that is overrun with deer. They think QDM starts with total protection of does.
On public land, eighty plus percent of the bucks we have are killed at or before 1 1/2 yrs old from hunters, cars, coyotes and all the numerous other reasons deer die, so QDM is realistically out of the question there.
I sometimes pass opportunties at small bucks,
and have no regrets, but when I do shoot a small buck, there is no regret there either.
I really appreciate your input here, QDM is going to be my Thesis topic. So getting the viewpoint of different groups of hunters is really a plus. In general, those who practice QDM and are successful are hunters who use firearms and compound bows. You dont hear of many who practice QDM that hunt trad gear only. For me, i would personally not shoot a small buck, or a small doe than take one before i can tell his/her full potential.
For me the question is what motivates you to hunt? Is it a matter of keeping score? To me the meat is the most important and only reason to hunt. I guess my attitude is shaped by the area that I live in. Not to long ago hunting was a means of adding protein to an other wise sparse diet. That is what hunting has always been about until the idea of sport hunting evolved. Don't get me wrong I would love to take a large antlered buck, but it's not my main motivation. I think that any deer taken by legal means is something to cherished.
Brian
Before deer hunting became a big MONEY head hunt we had the perfect QDM tool and it was called hunter access.
QDM,Outfitters,leasing and whatever else are doing one thing for Illinois deer hunting "killing it"
Slip over and check Paul Brunner's post about "The Golden Triangle" (too bad they locked it)Thats where your deer farms are taking hunting in this state.
I would say that you are looking at a symptom rather than the disease. Trad hunters tend not to be concerned with bragging rights, so the main purpose of QDM goes out the window.
I think you will find just as many landowner trad folks who practice herd management as gun or compound shooters. Not QDM, but herd management.
Please don't mention dollars and deer hunting int he same post. Makes me sick to my stomach just seeing that.
Traditional Archery as a managment tool is actually used in some places. Here in Oklahoma we draw hunts for certian state and federal lands. The MOST sought after hunt is on the McAllister Ammunition Depot in SE Oklahoma (they even have a web site). At this location they have been doing habitat management and herd managment (QDM, or whatever you want to call it) for nearly 40 years. The result? Healty deer populations with good doe:buck ratios and really big deer (both body and antler wise). Hunters can ONLY use traditional archery gear if drawn in. Anyone can apply for the drawing (resident and non-resident).
I think we have more than one view point working here. 1. The hunter who wants a place to hunt that fulfills whatever his/her expectations are. 2. The landowner who wants to attract paying hunters for a financial gain (reasons for that gain are as numerous as there are people seeking it). Both are valid view points.
I pay to hunt on a farmers property. I have plenty of access to other state lands that wouoldn't cost me anything. I like the guy, his place has good habitat (because he is very conservation minded and is concerned about all wildlife, not just deer) and I enjoy hunting there. We don't have any harvest standards and although we could certianly harvest more does than we do, we regulary see and shoot good deer.
Personally I would rather shoot a big deer than a little one, and don't think that makes me greedy, or calls my ethics into question.
We all know what we expect out of the hunting experience and strive to make our reality match it. The american farmer has done more to increase the number and quality of the nations deer than they are given credit for (not just my opinion, but quite a few others as well). Coming from a farming family I can tell ya it can be rough to make a living. If a hunting lease fee helps to make the land payments or covers the taxes, thats alright with me.
I lease the access to the guys place, and the oppourtunity to spend my time on his farm. He doesn't try and gouge me and I don't take his hard work at making a living for granted.
I know this is a "hot-button" topic for a lot of folks, and respect everyone's opinion!
OkKeith
OkKeith. GOOD POINT! I know one of the farms i work on-been friends with them for 18+ years-they have always had it rough. The past 2 years the cattle have had problems, and the crops aint been that good. Our wheat really hurt us this year, and the beans aint much better. The hunting leases will probably be what pays the taxes. They do not charge my bro and i to hunt, and we manage the farm for wildlife (rabbits, quail, and deer-not specifically in that order)Timber is also an important part there too. When we took the farm over in 2000, the average deer taken was 1-2.5 years and less than 6pts. No one wanted to pay to hunt. Here 8 years later we are taking 3-5yr bucks and seeing alot of 140"+. Now the leases are really handy because of the failed crops/cattle production.
Im glad to see that there is a place that manages its population trad only. do you have web addy for that, i would like to look into it a bit more for a project.
Pintail
Sorry Pin-Tail I have some problems with your whole dealy here on this...Protect the gene pool???taking of the larger animals KILLS the gene pool long term. Managing a wild animal herd has NEVER worked by killing off the strongest. You are selling a service which will destroy the herds health, to operation's who's bottom line is Big Bucks for Big Deer.
Pintail,
Here is the link to the Ammo Plant hunt:
http://www.mcaapcontrolledhunts.com/
Take a look at the video of the two bucks fighting during rut.
I have drawn into it a few times. It is a great hunt. The restrictions are tight but for good reason (tighter since 911).
There have been some really good bucks taken there, as well as some heavy weight does.
Our Dept of Wildlife Conservation (ODWC) has on-going reseach projects there as well (worked on a few as an undergraduate) and the resource managers that work for DoD are top notch! They have shown that selective harvest based on age (not really number of points or antler spread), and controll of the doe:buck ratio is successful. This place is not high fenced, these deer come and go as they choose, so these managment techniques are really applied over a greater area than just the federal property.
Good luck with your project. Let me know how I can help.
OkKeith
thank you
Deer are a prey species. If you are going to improve the 'quality' - should it not: be in the development of smarter deer...not bigger racked deer?
That I think means making them all understand that they have to be smart to survive; and that means they all: have to be targets of hunters.
I do not see letting a deer walk by a hundred times; over years - so he can be a bigger buck : as QDM.
It is purely and simply DRM ( deer rack management).
Used to be when all bucks knew they were being hunted- the big rack meant you killed an animal that was really smart; and really wiley.
That should be the idea; to make deer smarter.
Then again I like to HUNT.
Hey ya Brian,
That's a very good point. I tell ya though, if the deer around here get any smarter they will be letting the air out of my truck tires while I'm hunting!
I like to hunt as well, and am not all that hung up on antlers size either. Although as I said before, I would just as soon shoot a big deer as a small one.
We all have some sort of managment scheme for where we hunt whether private or public. If we hunt private land we might have some say in how things are done. If we hunt public land we may still have some say (public meetings, etc.) but depend on others to make those decisions on the sharp end.
Even "no managment" is still managment of a sort.
The way the fellas manage the MCAAP certianly wouldn't work where I hunt because we don't want to do things that way and are perfectaly happy with our results as they are. It's just a decent example of what might happen if someone is willing to do the work.
OkKeith
I have to agree with "oneshot1"!!!!!
I have seen it with my own eyes in the Catskill Mountain WMU's that are designated QDM units.You do not PROTECT the gene pool at all.What truely happens is that as soon as the bigger/older bucks become legal,they get killed. Leaving the "protected" spikes and forkhorns to do the majority of the breeding.
QDM may work on a private fenced in game farm.
HOWEVER.....It does not,and will not ever work on heavily hunted public land.
Here is some "simple" math.....
The "optimum"sex ratio is 1:1,however considering we are talking about "public land" we will figure that things are not "perfect" but they are "good" and the buck-doe ratio is 1:3.
There are 40 deer in a 10 square mile area.
10 bucks- (2 8-pointers,3 forkhorns,5 spikes)
and 30 "breedable" does.
The "main" breeding phase of the rut lasts approx. 10 days.
Being as a buck will usually spend 24-48 hours with a doe breeding her several times over that period,each "mature" 8-pointer will only be able to breed 5-7 does during the "main" breeding phase. Leaving the remainder of the "breedable" does to be bred by the spikes and forkhorns.
Because the "mature" bucks are killed as soon as they become legal while the spikes and forkhorns are "protected",this allows the smaller bucks to do the majority of the breeding.
This is why QDM will not work on heavily hunted public land.
Thank You all for listening.....I'll get off my soapbox now.
I see a lot of black and white responses. Certainly you can't believe that the topic is so simple that a black and white answer covers every situation. Most people seem to be personalizing this to the tract of land that they are hunting. Maybe QDM doesn't work on your tract for whatever reason, but maybe it does work on another tract.
As I see it most of the hunting population strives to make shooting a deer as easy and effortless as possible( feeding,rangefinders,high letoff compounds,foodplots,attractants,sentblock clothing and on and on)and then want to shoot large bucks as to somehow add some chalenge back to hunting.I also hunt with a rifle and will pass on most deer bucks and does as shooting one with a rifle is not much of a challenge. If I want to shoot a deer then I take my recurve or longbow. If I can get a deer in range, be presented a good shot angle, manage to draw the bow undetected when the shot is presented, then that deer is in trouble. Although I will probably pass on button bucks and spikes and maybe small forks or sixes or maybe not.
I know of one lease where the owner limits the members to 2 does for the whole season but you can shoot 5 bucks any size. They kill some huge bucks (for this area)every year. My theary is that the high doe population draws in bucks from the surrounding areas.
Cheesehead: that is a good point. I have been fortunate enough to have the QDM work on all the parcels i manage.
I passed this year on a decent 7pt becaused he looked very young. I figure he's gonna be a dandy next year. This was a personal choice. Theres no way I would encourage or expect someone else to do the same. If he had of walked on and got waxed by another hunter I would have been happy for him. If I had no deer in the freezer already I would have done my best to take him. If it's about anything other than the meat then alot of things the antihunter groups say about us are hard to deny. Isn't one of there main points that alot of us just kill for trophys??
I know there's suspose to be alot more to QDM than horns, but that seems to be one of the most talked about parts of it.
The only place I have seen them work is in places like Texas. The Texas Parks and Wildlife Division understands this, and allow for a late, Doe and Spike season.
This in addition to Managed Lands Permits, on lands being managed to state specifications based on a unique formula, which will allow for the taking of so many scrub deer that should be taken out of the gene pool. This really works toward fostering the better health of the herd, by providing for the harvest of these deer, and providing greater hunter opportunity.
Most hunters will shoot a big deer if they get the chance, but most bowhunters want a chance to take a legal deer. I don't have the patience to become a Trophy Hunter, I don't want to pass up that much back strap!
If you are introducing kids, new hunters, women, it might be a good idea to place the focus on deer, not Pope and Young deer.
What is the scoop on spikes? I used to believe that they were 'inferior' but after seeing lots of huge bucks with antlers- in March(wt). And seeing pregnant does in September; I wonder if spikes can be the late off-spring of the biggest bucks.( assuming that the early antler drop younger bucks don't breed after they drop their antlers).
ie: it seems the older bucks hold their antlers as they are still being exposed to does in heat; and late bred does are more likely to end up with a spike with them.
I am willing to be wrong; just stating what I have observed and trying to make some sense of it.
:archer:
I was told that in Iowa spikes and some forkies are from september bread does, and fawns still with spots in the fall are from february bread does.
in the area here around home the poachers do most of the big buck management,the mounts are easy to spot,usually the hair around the eyes are cinged or theres powder burns where the arrow went in.
actually that is an excellent point; Elkbow !
all jokes aside,genetics,food source,mineral,and they say stress plays an important role in antler growth-not necassarily in that order.like anything else though,they're can be what we call late bloomers though so unless your in a controlled environment i wouldn,t be too concerned on culling.improving the health of your deer herd by feeding,using suppliments and mineral licks can improve the general health and potential of your herd.is the expense worth the rewards,can your property withstand the effects of a un-naturally supplimented deer herd.brouse make up a lot more of a whitetails diet than what most people realize.it usually takes years of serious investment of not only money but also time to alter your herd,and unless your dealing with penned animals,almost impossible to have that much control over free roaming deer.you'll notice deer yard up in the late winter and the bucks usually group up by age class also,that being said consider this,do they normally winter on your property?if so,then you can have somewhat of an impact on them but if not,who's going to reap the benefits of your money and labor.i plant feed plots to try to hold the deer in the core of our property ,not to hunt because if your pressureing these animals away from your feed plots what benefit are they to your deer,i'm trying to protect what i can from the road hunters that have invaded us since the harvest of the amish buck last year.the deer lick the blocks i keep out for the cattle so i'm not doing anything special in that case the plots are specifically for the deer and turkey though.this is my opinion only based on years of raising livestock.
one in the freezer beats two on the ridge anyday,to each his own,as it should be,i think?
What I saw this past season in the area I hunt in Pa. on state forest land, was not bigger bucks but younger bucks doing the breeding. I sat over some active scrapes that I doctured every day for two solid weeks,in that period I had seven different bucks visiting the scrape looking for the hot doe. I could have shot at four of the seven but choose not to,in this same period I saw one mature doe, the Pa Game Commission and the Dept of Forestry have been wacking does for five years now, and I admit I've helped them to accomplish their goals,but I feel with the decline in the doe population the bucks are traveling larger distances to find receptive does. There's been alot of bigger bucks killed on roads this year and I believe the reason is as stated.On our state owned lands which my taxes and license fees helped buy and maintain the QDM is not working.On private land it maybe working but I'm not going to be forced to lease or buy land for such a program.
I think that QDM is a great thing if that is what you want to do on 'your' property. If you can get all your neighbors to play along even better for all of you. I plant food plots an maintain a 'sanctuary' on my 23 acres every year. The two 40 acre neighbors however maintain a 'if it's brown it's down' environment. What I see is mostly does and fauns. I saw one spike buck all year this year. Would I like to shoot a trophy, sure, who wouldn't? Is that what motivates me to hunt? No.
In a state like Michigan where we have millions of acres of public land and field more gun hunters than the entire US armed forces for our 2 week firearm season, mandating QDM on public land just doesn't work. I'm a working guy, I get maybe 2 weekends to hunt, I have to shoot a buck. I'm I going to wait for a 'mature' buck when there's 750,000 other hunters in the woods. No Way! I'm going to shoot the first chance I get.
Here's another aspect I think is important here. A big part of QDM is management of the habitat, we can't afford to do that on our public land. We can hardly afford to keep COs in the field these days. If the good habitat and food are on private lands where do you think the deer are going to be? I'm lucky, I have a small piece of property to hunt. The majority of hunters in Michigan only have the neglected state & federal land to depend on.
Howard