Trad Gang

Could not stand another day of great weather and being confined to the house.

So,I went turkey scouting in hopes I will be able to draw my bow by seasons start.

Saw 8 or 10 deer, a bunch of hens with a few jakes thrown in and 5 coyote pups.

As I crossed a small stream, I noticed some rock outcropings on the opposite bank and paid them no mind. When I got across the stream, I saw two little pups all snuggled up together under the rock. I could not believe it! I grabbed my camera from my shirt pocket and as I did I noticed two more jump up and run under the rock and into what was the entrance to their den. I was only feet away from the rock and was a little spoked that the bitch was in the whole too!
She must have been able to hear me or smell me as I could hear her growling from under the rock.
I could not let this pass without a pic to share with you all, so with my good left hand I held my walking stick at the ready, and with my right hand in a cast I snapped the camera shutter.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/coyotepups.jpg)

As I stepped a little closer the pups were awakened by a small branch breaking under my boot. They jumped and for a second they just looked at me.Then they scurried off under the rockand into their den. They growled at me as well, but I could hear the bitch growling too. So, I thought it was time for me to leave!

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/coyotepups1.jpg)

As I took another step, I heard the leaves rustle behind me and I thought the bitch was coming out of the den at me. Turning quickly around to see what I was up against, I see this little bugger running towards the den. He must have been laying asleepin the leaves and I did not see him.

Well I was so tickled by this I goofed up the shots of it running back to the den.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/coyotepups3.jpg)  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/coyotepups4.jpg)

Anyway's, it was the most excitment I've had in the past few weeks!

I hope you all get as big of a kick from this as I did.


I may return tomorrow with a video camera to see if they come out and play. Though I am concerned the bitch may move them tonight. I can sit across the hollow and get them on the zoom lens...

What do you all think?

The pups looked several weeks old as they scurried about with some degree of quickness. I guessed 3 weeks old! When they looked right at me I thought to myself, boy their eyes are very pretty. Kinda green/brown in color.

Very cool pics. responses should be interesting too.

Awesome! I will bet money that she will have moved the pups by nightfall. I studied coyotes for my MS in wildlife. Had a radiocollared female I tracked to her den once. Came across the pups in a rock outcropping much as you did. Ran home for my camera and when I returned within an hour or so, I caught her moving the pups. I never even saw her the first time, but she knew I was there and took no risks.

Thanks for sharing your story! Brought back fond memories!

Steve

As much as  dislike coyotes, everytime I see a young pup like that I can't help but smile! I haven't seen any young'ins this year but normaly do see a few every spring.

Just thought to myself that the turkeys I saw were no more than 70yrds from the den. The deer I saw were about 100 yards away. With the small stream for water, the old gal sure picked a prime spot for a den!

Vermonster was waiting for my reply. I am sorry, but I would of killed them all if possible(If season is open, of course)Shawn

Shawn, how could you   :saywhat:    :biglaugh:  

I know some feel that way and I can understand, but I could just not do it. I reason that they may give me a fair chase shot someday. Never have been able to take a coyote,,, YET! We just started seeing them around these parts about 5 years ago.

Nice to come across another predator now and then!

Wow, that's really cool. I like to shoot them if I can during hunting, but not the family. Let 'em pups grow and give 'em a sporting chance.

Well, we started seeing them 25 years ago and now they are wreaking havoc on our deer herd. I know it sounds callous but I say nip it in the bud!! We just had some very deep snow and it got warm and froze on top, well you know what that means, the deer break thru the yotes don't!! A buddy and me took a walk the other day and found 7 coyote killed deer in less than a half mile!@! Shawn P.S. They are cute, no doubt about it! Shawn

hey that would be cool to see im up close. nice job  :thumbsup:

There's no way I could have killed those pups. Season or no season the coyote is a natural part of the ecosystem, aslong as the population is being held in check I'll put of killing them until they grow up and present a real challenge.

Very cool, thanks for the pictures.

I don't think I could kill the pups, but wouldn't hesitate on the bitch.

My one worry at my (hobby)farm is that my dog, which runs free, will see one and go out to say "Hi" and get itself killed.

If she was growling you were very close to seeing the wrath of a coyote with no choice.
I have seen their fury at close range when they figured they had no choice. You don`t want to go there without a pump twelve full of #2`s.
They are cute, but as someone else said, in ten more years you will kill them on sight. (providing the law will allow of course)
Fantastic photos. Good luck with a turkey tag.

Shawn,

I grew up near Binghamton NY and still consider it home though I haven't hunted there in a few years. I saw my first coyotes there in 93. Still plenty of deer there, though I have noticed their behavior has changed. Much more flighty with a full time predator in the woods. Also lived in Plattsburgh, NY (where I did my study) and there were plenty of both coyotes and deer. Given increasing herds throughout most of the state (bag limits have become much more liberal no?) in many areas where there are coyotes, do you really think they are impacting the herd? I know they kill deer, adults and fawns, but I haven't seen too much evidence they are robbing sportsmen of opportunities.... Where are you and what do you see in your neck of the woods? I remember the winter of 93/94, a friend studying deer in Seneca National Park took me out on a spring pellet count. We found dozens of winter-killed deer. Its not unusual in a winter like this one with or without coyotes.

Steve

I wouldn't be able to kill them either. I have no problem shooting an adult during deer season, but I have actually let adults walk during turkey season cause I was afraid they might have pups. We don't have near as many here as we did 5 or 6 years ago. I don't know what happened to the population, but it is really down in the area I hunt. I'm sure it will rebound soon though. I really hope it doesn't, but that is probably just wishful hoping. I just can't bring myself to harm the youngsters or their moms, and I feel the same way about deer and other game species.
Don't have a problem with other opinions or actions; that's just my personal feelings.

Yote pups are cute...when they are a week or two younger their eyes are blue.
Im close to Shawn, and the yotes are all over here. Three years ago, I got a deer with the wheelie....great blood for about seventy yards. Then hardly anything. Ended up taking me about two hours from the time of the shot to recover the deer. By that time, it was only a hide. DEC told me then, get all your friends together and start killing em...they estimated it would take about forty dogs to eat that deer in such a short time. I have no doubt they put a hurting on the local deer herd, found a few dozen kills over the lastyear or two.
Otherwise...ya have to admire em. Smart and they can adapt to anything.

Don't be hate'n Shawn. He's got a good reason to feel the way he does. I would kill a pack of rat pups without hesitation and some would not.

  :bigsmyl:    :campfire:

Well if you look at from a 5 year view, there's the potential of 40-60 more coyotes for your area just from that den. They are pups, but its all in what the area is being managed for and what the density of coyotes are. If you had livestock, they would be dead now is my guess or if you were running a hunting lease. Everything is relative to the goals of who's there at any given time.

I do not think I know. I spoke to several ENCON officials this past fall. A camera was put in a den in Greene County for only two months, 23 fawns were taken into the den. That is one den with about 3 Adult yotes and some young. Do not fool yourself, Greene County issued no doe permits this past season,that has not happened in 25 years. Shawn

I have to agree with Shawn!!!!! They are a KILLING MACHINE!!!!! I have seen what they do first hand with my own eyes.

They kill a much as they can.....As fast as they can.....THEN they go back and eat untill they're full!!!!!

I saw a pack of 5 coyotes kill 19 turkeys. They pounced on the birds pulling out mouthsfull of wing feathers (birds cannot fly with un-ballanced wings) After the rest of the flock had flown away,they chased down the cripples and killed them.

Believe me or not.....I saw it myself!!!!! I would have killed them.

Oh, by the way several cats, two dogs and a few adult deer were brought in as well. Shawn

Very cool Joe!

I am not cold and heartless and it would bother me some, but I look at what they have done to our deer. People say the small game count goes down when ya have a lot of coyotes. I say bull, why eat rabbit when ya can eat deer. Also these deer were not emaciated and die of starving, they had full bellies and there was a lot of evidence they were hunted and ran down by the coyotes. Do as ya want, but I will kill them at every opportunity when legal and hope NY finally gets smart and has an open season year round. I agree they are a wonder of nature, but left unchecked they will put a hurting on Osagetrees deer herd eventually. Shawn

I wish you could hunt them all year. I see more of them in the spring when i am hunting turkeys than i do all the other times of the year. Must be they like turkeys as much as deer because they seem to be stalking me when i call. When they wind me they are gone. They are here to stay no matter how many get killed young or old.

Your right Shawn!!!!! You are not cold and heartless. YOU ARE PRACTICAL!!!!!

People think we are "selfish" to kill coyotes because they are decimating our deer herds,I have heard those people say with my own 2 ears "those coyotes have as much right to kill and eat those deer as you do!!!!!" and "those deer aren't YOUR deer"

Well.....So.....We leave them alone.....THEN what happens????? I'll tell you what!!!!! They kill your cats!!!!! They kill your dogs!!!!! They kill your livestock!!!!! Hell,your KIDS aren't even safe playing in the YARD!!!!!

Yup.....I'd have killed them.

Seem's to be a touchy subject! Glad we can discuss it from different views and understand that we are free within the limits of the law to do as we see best,,, THANK GOD FOR AMERICA!

Ohio has an open season,,, that should side on Shawns point of view.

Coyotes were a part of the circle of life before we men were in this part of the world,, that sides on other's views.

Is it not great we can communicate and agree to disagree?

Have fun, be open minded!  :wavey:  


Thank youall for your responses,,,it has made my week!

I've enjoyed it, but I knew it would be fun from the moment you posted. lol

Even here in the DFW area of Texas they are thriving. I have seen them in a wooded area across from an elemntry school just eyeing the kids. In Arlington and Mansfield they are playing havoc with the dogs and cats. People are loosing their pets at an alarming rate. I will kill them on site. I have also seen what they do to a deer herd. I have watched them run deer down and could do nothing because I did not have permission to hunt that ranch. The sad thing is that place was over run with rabbits. Both cottontail and Jack.

Shawn,

I'm from PA you can whack a coyote pretty much every day of the year.

I would have harvested them all as well if possible.

JD

My dad lives in High Springs, Florida, he and a freind went to watch his frend's watermelon feild one evening, to see what was destroying the melons, it was yotes ! They would bust one open and eat the heart out of it, then move on to the next one. Destroyed a 30 acre patch in a short time. I never would have beleived it if it had'nt came from my dad. They have no quail, rabbits, turkey, deer, stray cats or dogs around that area. Kinda makes ya wonder, re-introduce ??

It was not possible for me to harvest them,,, that's my story.

Mt right arm is in a cast, I had bone surgery two weeks ago,I had no pistol and my walking stick is light aluminum and does not work well as a bludgeon.   :thumbsup:  

Think of it like this, if someone kills some and the other guy deos not,,,maybe it all evens out to a balance we all can survive with?

 :pray:

Maybe your DNR will reintroduce wolves to knock the coyote population down.    :knothead:

Neat, pretty cool pictures. I've hunted the coyotes for a long time. I respect them for what they are and for what they do in the chain of life. But like all things wild they need to be controlled in a humain and responsible way. "Sometimes the lives of few have to be sacrifaced for the lives of many."  Coyotes out of check will kill a ton more than they eat. And that tips the balance of nature and all wildlife will suffer. Again very cool pictures, glad you made it out of there without a bite.    :scared:

This may be a little late, but to quote Dtala from another thread, "I'll take a large popcorn and a drink" Beyond that...I'm Switzerland.  :)

Ever since the value of a coyote hide took a dive around here and not as many people hunt them it gets harder and harder to see a rabbit. While most of it is due to loss of habitat quail are as scarce as hens teeth around here as well. Used to be I couldn't go afield with out having at least one covey scare the spit out of me. As with any animal, with out control they will propagate to fill their environment to capacity.

If you can find it, pick up a copy of the book 'Coyotes: Predators and Survivors' by Charles Cadieux.  I tells of the war waged against the coyote by the US Government and is a very interesting fact filled book.

I am 51 years old and there have always been coyotes and coyote hunters around here since I can remember.  I have traveled many miles following coyote hounds on the weekends and watched several tricks that a pair of coyotes have pulled on a pack of dogs.  There are more coyotes around here now than there ever was before and I hear them every evening from all directions around our house.

If I have a gun with me I will shoot at every one I see, adult or pup.  You can try but you will never eradicate the coyote.

Dennis

We have got tons of yotes here and I mean alot of them and they havent hurt our deer herd at all but blue tongue disease did, it wiped out 50 percent of our population in one summer, this year. So basically you have a choice, too many deer and the yotes eat a few or yoo many deer and you get blue tongue and get to watch them rot along the streams/creeks. Coyotes are natural predators and the deer around here are not jumpy at all even though they are everywhere. Ive killed and trapped a ton of adults in my life but would not even consider killing a pup.What hurts the rabbit population is the farmers taking out all the fencerows/weedpatches etc., yotes cant catch them any better then your beagle in a thick patch of briars, problem is theres not many of those left. We went out 4 times this year w/snow on the ground and killed 44 rabbits, each time taking our limits in under 3 hrs. and this was because we hunted very thick cover where yotes cant get to them. Alot of our small game problems are caused by ourselves and the predators get to be the scapegoat. Another thing you get rid of the cover for rabbits/quail and it takes away places for the yotes to mouse and rabbit hunt so there left to hunt stray cats,dogs or fluffy out in the back yard, sorry for the rant but just get tired of people blaming the animal when we cause 90 percent of our own problems.

QuoteOriginally posted by Osagetree:
 We just started seeing them around these parts about 5 years ago.

Five years from now I'm guessing you'll be wishing you had the chance to kill them.

Talk about a rare opportunity there, Osagetree...

I agree with Shawn that the coyotes around here are really wreaking havoc on our deer. That said, there's no way I would have been able to do anymore than just enjoy watching em. Prolly should kill any pups on sight, but I doubt I could...

Nice photos, and an interesting thread.  

I grew up in central NY, and at the time that I lived there (through '98) coyote sightings were relatively rare (I spent ALOT of time afield and never saw one).  My father owns a piece of land that for years provided us with great deer hunting opportunities; but the last two years, for the first time since the family has owned it, he didn't deer hunt there.  When I asked him why, he simply said "Coyotes".  When I asked him to elaborate, he described in some detail the decline of the deer herd in that area over the past several years.  At first he didn't know exactly what to attribute it to, but the increased coyote activity that he was experiencing gave him a pretty good idea.  One day a couple of years ago he ran into a good friend of his who is a wildlife biologist and who was studying coyotes in the area.  As it turns out, his friend had been videotaping a den on the piece of property adjacent to my dad's, and he said that over the span of two months, the tape showed 41 fawns being brought back to that one den.  If one den can contribute that much to fawn mortality, I could certainly see where coyotes, one they got a foothold in an area, could wreak havoc on a deer herd pretty damned quickly.

That said, I personally wouldn't kill the pups, or their mother (unless it was clear that they were at an age where they could adequately fend for themselves).

I agree with Shawn.... where legal... I'd kill them all.

This TOPIC has become one of the hidden jewels on Tradgang and would be on any hunting site for that matter.

The topics here about what is traditional archery?,  what is instinctive shooting? , which is better gap or instinctive shooting?...these are all fun to see responses and pretty much an individual question we answer for ourselves. All these personal choice questions and ideas are mute if we don't have the deer that we love so much to hunt.

Vermonster13 was right on point in the very beginning here when he said he could not wait for the answers. I'm sure he pretty sat by his computer or at the very least did not turn it off so after completing what ever it was he was doing, he could quickly see the responses.

Where this topic did not start out to ask what would have one done if they saw this pack, but rather too share pictures of nature not seen by many.
This topic affects our entire hunting community and I feel requires a consensus as how to proceed.  Where hunting ethics, fare chase and the future population of our deer herd are to be discussed and an answer to be made as a community.
Maybe a hot line should be established to notify those who would, for those who would not, not making any of the two to be a bad or nice guy, just a community of action.

What would have Ishi and all his tribesmen throughout the country have done, those who hunted to survive?  Since we control the population via doe permits does it even matter what they would have done and that we have our own problems to solve based on out needs and for the future of bow hunitng?  Are doe permits or getting additional land opened up thru DEC access permits etc the only answer?

Here we are discussing how one way to keep the deer population up is to eliminate Yotes of which I have no issue in controling their population and yet I find sad how here on Long Island and I'm sure throughout the country golf courses are issued nuisance permits where guys drive around in golf carts killing deer and have heard of even burying the carcasses onsite.  Is this fair chase or ethical, or just crazed hunters getting their kicks?  I'd pay extra to see deer run thru my golf coarse.
Hard questions requiring Solomon answers.

Joe those pics are priceless. This thread is gonna be a teachin tool for me tomorrow as I homeschool my kids.
There's nature, politics, history, math, grammer   :bigsmyl:  . I can teach out of this thread all day.
Thanks Joe for startin it, Thanks Tradgang for keepin it rollin. I love this place!!!

P.S. Joe I'm glad you didn't kill em. How would I explain it to Emma?

I saw the most incredible coyote thing this morning on the way to work.

I-15 in north San Diego county has four lanes of 80MPH traffic that fills the road at rush hour.  I ride a motorcycle; this morning I thought I was hallucinating when I saw a coyote run  across all four lanes... and make it.  I am not sure since the light was low and it happened so fast; but, I think he ran under a pick-up, between the axles, in the process.  They are amazing animals but they sure cause us problems.

The rocket rollerskates he had on said "Acme".

Osagetree, thanks for sharing the pics of those cute lil' buggers. How is your wrist feeling, the ailment and surgery must have required courage to sustain.
Despite this tempest you stirred up we all wish you a full and speedy recovery. We need to see some of your new bows soon!!

This whole thread brings up a question from an ethics class. "If you could travel back in time and kill Hitler as a child, would you?" The main argument against it was did the man make the times or the times create the man? With coyotes that question doesn't come into play.

Bears, lions and other predators will kill competing species young and even young of their own species for different reasons. A thread with lots of teaching potential Kenny.

I like civil discussions that make us think and question our own values. Of course different regions have different issues/nonissues with coyotes and other predators also, so we get that thrown in too. In the northeast our coyotes tend to run much larger than elsewhere and deer make a much larger percentage of their diet. Interesting stuff all around.

Dand I hete Coyotes. Hard for me to kill them as well Ga. I just see them as another predator in the woods doing its thing. Plus they look just like a dog. Now pigs thats another story.

Kenny,
glad you liked the pics and the thread. Grammer,,,oh no! Remember because of the operation/cast, I'm on pain med's and typing left handed .

Kingstaken,
What would Ishi's tribe have done? I don't know. But,I thought of bringing them back to camp and befriending them.... If that did not work, by winter I'd have some lean meat to get me through. Might make a good work dog?

Joe, typing under the influence is a capital offence in my classroom. My 9yr. old will rip that excuse to shreds in the morning, so be well prepared Brother!!!

Osagetree,
Great pictures, you don't run into something like that to often. I couldn't have killed the pups either. I will kill a adult any time I can. 10 years ago we had turkeys all over our place, then the song dogs moved in, and now we haven't seen any turkeys in over 4 years. Go 10 miles in any direction, and the turkeys are there, but on our place the yotes have cleaned them out. It's a rare night when I don't hear them right in back of us, and a few have come into the yard. I know there just another predator, but there out of control here.

Awsome pics man.Once in alifetime probably.I think that deer that are hunted by coyotes are much different as a population, but hey man challenge is what this is about.Thats just deer in their pure state, not suburban deer.Sorry to stray from the topic, again thanks for the pics.Ill bet only 1 or 2 will survive into maturity so dont worry too much.

I have said my piece,and made my stand.....But,to each thier own.

To My Brother Osagetree.....Thank You for your pictures,I have enjoyed this thread!!!!!

Joseph,
I don't know if i would trust them for a pet, after all they are wild animals. We use to have a pack of wild dogs that were running around here, my sister in laws boy friend found a pup while hunting took the thing home and tried to raise it. That dog was nothing but mean even after he treated it good that makes me wonder about those pups.

I used to love seeing a coyote while in the woods. Over the years, the sightings became all too frequent and then friends started losing their hunting dogs. I have beagles and a bird dog, and my view of them has changed.

They are an incredible animal, but the balance of nature no longer exists. Their only natural enemies are gone in my area. The only method left to control them is man. As a result, coyote hunting has become much more popular. Some guys put fast hounds on them to run them to gun. Others, actually breed a very tough, fast dog that will run them down and kill them - usually 2 or 3 dogs on one coyote. I know several coyote hunters who take 50-75 each year. It doesn't seem to make a difference. Their population seems to keep going up.

Within the last month, a guy in my area was walking his two labs in a very rural spot. In his presence, 5 coyotes attacked and killed the 80 lb dogs. According to the dog owner, the coyotes killed these large dogs very quickly. By the time the owner got back with the game authorities, the dogs had been eaten.

I've talked with many coyote hunters and some have  taken several coyotes in the 60+ lb range. That's damned near a wolf. In fact, the DEC in New York has documented wolf genes in the coyotes population of this area.

All that said, I personally would have probably not killed the pups, but I certainly would not have faulted anyone who did.

4runr,
Now you get to talk about Hitler in your history lesson of the day!  

I say if it is open season, they're gonners.  As Jim Gafigan says fun to pet and look at, better to chew.

What would Ishi had said if you brought him a quiver made out of a brain-tanned coyote cub? ....
..... THANKS!

In ND, we pretty much kill all coyotes on sight if at all possible. Up here the damn things kill everything from gamebirds to young livestock like four legged serial killers.   They've almost completely rendered fox extinct in my area.

They are almost unbelievably bold when things are going their way. I've seen an adult coyote walk through my yard following a deer trail, and have found their tracks in the mud 6" from my gamebird pens, also in the yard.  In the last two years we've lost about 25-30 chickens, guineas, and ducks to coyotes and coon.

Cute as those pups are, I would have killed them on the spot and snared the den area to get the adults...

Great pics!As to whether I would kill them if given the chance?I don't know.We have not had them around long.Wildlife officers say to kill them all.Open season all yr.on private land.It says alot about  those on this site that it can be talked about without name calling and insults.

"Killing Machine" - No. God's Dog is a predator just like us! They kill to eat and survive. For most of us. It's a sport. I like song dogs! So he likes venison! Who doesn't! I have nothing but respect for them. And no animosity.

P.S. You folks that shoot them. I understand why. And they do need to be controlled. I just can't do it.

Those are extremely cool pictures.  Thanks for sharing them.  I like predators.  They keep things interesting.  In the woods, and on the internet forums  :)

Trying to control coyotes is like trying to control rats or cockroaches.  As long as there is carrying capacity, they will be there.  Kill them all as far as I care but it is pretty fruitless without a concerted and expensive eradication effort.  And that is probably only short term.  It has been tried and been somewhat successful in the past...for a time.  In our day, it would never even get off the ground.

Enjoy them in whichever way you want.  In Indiana they were enjoying some pretty healthy population growth until furs became a little more valuable.  The we started hunting them pretty heavy and it seems to have slowed their expansion.  Places like Parke County in western Indiana are still thick with them.  But like Indianalongbowshooter said, the Blue Tongue wiped out half the deer so I bet we will have some correction in a the next few years.

Osage;

Cool pics.  I found a den once as well.  They were just starting to explore the world.  The farmer who owned the property didn't want the coyotes harrassed as he didn't have livestock and they kept the woodchuck population down.  Funny thing about that farm.  I saw on the average of one or two coyotes every time I went out.  

I hunted that property for over 10 years.  When I started, there were no turkey.  When I stopped the turkey were coming on strong.  When I started there were no quail, but several large coveys when I stopped.  The deer population continued to grow with some really nice racks starting to show up.  

I can't argue that coyotes don't do considerable damage.  I know that in areas of population density, coyotes have killed a lot of domestic animals and may pose a danger to children as well.

But killing one, or not killing one is a personal decision.  You chose not to and personally, I applaud your decision.  Should one of them later fall under the sights of a hunter, then that is also as it should be.  Life is not a Disney film.  

Dan

Another reason theres so many of them in some areas and why they become bold is that they havent perceived the human population in that area to be enough of a threat.If youve got too many of them get a trapping license or get out and hunt them.Ive heard a lot of people in my area and in the Adirondacks complain about them and then say they dont hunt them after deer season because "Its too cold" or theyre "too tough to call".Its our responsibility to manage them.I feel bad for commenting on this too much,sorry Osage tree,this threads really about the pictures and your experience.Thanks again Osage.

All of farmers I hunt on would be upset if I walked by a den and said "Oh, how cute". I probably would be invited in for breakfast if pulled in with those dead pups along with mom in the back of my truck.

Very well stated Dan. Especially the part about life not being a Disney film. Most of our society sees life through that stinkin tube and some day our great country is in for a rude awakening.

QuoteIve heard a lot of people in my area and in the Adirondacks complain about them and then say they dont hunt them after deer season because "Its too cold" or theyre "too tough to call"

That's odd. I go snowshoe hunting a couple times each year in the tughill area. I'll usually see 30-50 guys hunting coyotes. It's easy to spot them. They're all standing just off the road waiting for their dogs to bring the beast past them. In the tughill area alone, these guys kill many dozens of coyotes with no noticeable effect on their population. I have to wonder if the same thing might not be happening over most of the adirondacks. Maybe they're being killed, but are more prolific than the hunters are effective.

I like piling up coyotes as much as the next guy, but I would have let the pups go as well.  We have an ever expanding number of coyotes here, but they provide as much "off season" entertainment for me as deer and turkey in season.  They are very cagey and will give any hunter a run for his money.

I found a den of pups several years ago while turkey hunting.  I got a few pictures (don't know if I can find them or not) and actually handled the little guys, knowing it was not a great idea.  The next day, the whole bunch was gone.  I suspect momma moved them...or ate them.  It's hard not to like the cute little buggers.

After seeing the damage that a pack could do as I reported in another thread during NY's Deer season. Which was a den with 28 fawn skulls. The only word that comes to my mind is (and this might be extreme)  :knothead:  "DYNAMITE"   :clapper:

Great pics Osagetree. I have a particular distain for tha varmints myself. I was bushogging one day and spotted a mangy coyote crossing my pasture and without thinking the next thing I knew I was going after him on my tractor. Needless to say the bushog began to bounce like crazy and before I knew it I had a broke pin.[ Smart move] Stik to the guns and bow for coyotes boys. Tractors just don't move fast enough!

Those are cool pictures, and we have lots of opinions on coyotes.  
  It's funny the way they just sort of have shown up in areas where they did not exist.  My father told me that they did not show up in our part of Illinois until 1978.  
   The thing about coyotes, is once you have them in an area, they are nearly impossible to get rid of.  I don't think they do as much damage to deer herds as what people claim.  I actually have a lot of respect for coyotes, because they are so adaptable.

Wow this thread took off...
it seems to me that one major point has been left out. Here in Greene county, as well as the majority of the NE, the other natural predators that would help control the yotes are gone. Wolves, mountain lions, bears(are making a nice comeback here) all did their part to lessen the competition in the time of Ishi and his brothers. They are no longer around(for the most part) which makes the yote top dog.(Pun intended) Im sure these predators also had their affect on the deer herd.
I know there are too many locally. I have counted 27 in one pack from a treestand. With the loss of natural management, I think DEC needs to step up to the plate and at the very least do an intense study (state-wide) like the one Shawn mentioned.
That being said....doubt Im hard core enough to have killed the pups.

I found 11 sets of bones behind my house last year. This is a no hunting area and you can hear the yotes howl almost every night. There are so many around here they come in our addition looking for food on trash day. I think I'd still have a hard time doing something with the pups. There was a time I wouldn't think twice about it though.

QuoteOriginally posted by 4runr:
Very well stated Dan. Especially the part about life not being a Disney film. Most of our society sees life through that stinkin tube and some day our great country is in for a rude awakening.

I agree with you that television has too much influence, but it's not all bad - I watch Animal Planet, Discovery, and TLC quite often with my two year old.  Many shows on those networks keep both she AND I entertained while teaching some very valuable lessons.

Now, back to the topic at hand - as mentioned previously, I really liked the photos.  There is something about observing the young of just about any species as they work their way through the early stages of development that fascinates me.

Ok, I will chime in,  Coyotes have hammered the turkey population where I hunt, I mean really hammered.  The pics and story are cool, but if I would have found the den, I would have gone directly home, grabbed my wifes shotgun (I sold mine to buy a bow), and gone back and taken care of the little buggers and never felt an ouce of remorse.

PS.  Never arm your wife.

Scott

My 2 cents: Yotes are NOT a natural predator in Georgia. They came east (some say imported)and have thrived.  You guys in areas with big-bodied deer may not have the predation we do, but it is terribly destructive here.  Rabbits and quail have virtually disappeared and the deer population is greatly diminished from 10 yrs ago.  As far as our local ecology, yotes are harmful and unwelcome pests that need eradicating.  Their existence here is at the expense of the truly natural predators native to our area: red and grey fox and bobcat.  And I have been growled at by several yotes that objected to me claiming a deer I had shot only 30 minutes earlier.

The coyotes weren't imported they followed the nice little path we left them called the Interstate. As for predation, I honestly don't know if they are all to blame for the decrease in rabbit and quail populations, I have a feeling that our constant need to spread a shopping mall to every corner of the known globe has a bigger impact than the coyote population. In a normal ecosystem, from what I have been taught, coyote and wolves compete with each other over resources and one of the reasons that coyotes do a little better is they go after things that wolves will normally not go after or not catch with a good kill rate..
Now personally, I don't want to see any "exotic" species being introduced into any ecosystem because you always get the same result as you get with coyotes, nutria, and other.. So killing the pups might be the most humane thing to do but it would be a bit hard for me...

What makes a deer or turkey 'worth' more than a coyote?

That is a really good question!

Great pictures

If I had seen them on my property, yes I would have killed the pups, I wouldnt be happy about it. It would have been unpleasant but necessary for the overall improvement of my property and hunting.

cant say for sure cause I havent tried but I'd say a deer or turkey taste way better than a coyote.  :thumbsup:

Wow... quite a response. I have no problem killing coyotes. I've killed of few myself when I used to trap. I just think they deserve more respect than to be made a scapegoat. I have to laugh when I hear people say they have to be "controlled" or "managed" as it will never happen as a result of recreational or sport hunting. Mortality rates have to exceed 70% of the adult population to cause a population decline due to a phenomonon known as compensatory reproduction. i.e. birth rates increase when mortality rates increase. They do this through actual increase in litter size, but probably moreso through the breakdown of social constraints on breeding behavior. When coyote densities are high, and there are few vacant territories, young will delay dispersal and remain in their birth range with their parents for a year or two, forming family groups or "packs." They forgo their own breeding opportunities to remain with their parents and assist with the raising of siblings. Kill the alpa pair, and the social structure breaks down and you now have two or three females breeding where previously you had only one. In this way, coyotes can overcome a very high mortality rate. I collared 19 coyotes in the Lake Champlain Valley in Upstate NY. Coyote hunters who used hounds were very active there and routinely removed 35-70 coyotes from my study area every year. They took a good many of my study animals.

I found that coyotes that lived in the ag lands fed mostly on small mammals and livestock carrion. In the bigger woods areas closer to the Adirondacks, deer were a more important part of their diet. Probably because smaller game was less abundant in mature forests and the pack forming behavior in these areas (which were largely ignored by coyote hunters) enable more efficient hunting of deer.

Coyote depredation on livestock and game can be controlled, but only through intensive effort on a relatively small scale. Integrated management programs incorporating trapping, snaring, calling and shooting, selective toxicants and aerial gunning from aircraft can reduce livestock and game depredations in small areas (lambing pastures and fawning grounds) when applied immediately prior to the spring fawning/lambing season. Do not confuse coyote depredation control with coyote population control...they are two different things.

I saw several references to "how they got here." Importations probably were a significant source of coyotes in the southeastern US. Not through covert DNR operations as I often hear, but rather by houndsmen who release fox and coyotes into pens to train their hounds. Funny thing happens when trees fall on fences. They collapse and the critters escape. Its a big business in the southeast and the live market for coyotes brings far more than their furs. In the northeast, coyotes established themselves as the western population expanded northward and eastward in the absence of wolves. Some interbreeding with remnant wolf populations in southern Ontario may have occurred, allowing for their larger body weight and addition of wolf genes. They are movers... one female coyote I collared in November of 94 in Plattsburgh, NY was killed the following spring on I-95 on the seacoast in New Hampshire, over 200 miles away as the crow flies.

I find that population densities are often grossly over estimated as well. A pack of 4-7 coyotes could clean up a deer in a few hours. Coyotes and wolves can consume massive quantities (10-15 lbs)of meat in short amounts of time. I've often wondered how many of those 65# coyotes are actually 50# coyotes with 15 pounds of venison in their stomachs... Average weights of eastern coyotes run 30-40 for females and 40-50 for males.   I hate to think that there are professional wildlifers out there telling people it would take 40 coyotes to reduce a deer to bones in a couple hours. Just remember, many of your conservation officers are not necessarily wildlife experts. The harmonies created by a howling pack of 5-7 coyotes often makes it sound like many more than that. Very few family groups exceed 8 coyotes, and in high density populations in high quality habitat, territories are 2-3 square miles. To see 27 coyotes at once would be a mindboggling experience and a biological anomaly worthy of documentation in the wildlife journals!

Feel free to kill them, just don't expect it to make a difference. Reminds me of the Doritos commercial... eat all you want we'll make more! On a regional scale, coyotes are probably not negatively impacting game species to the degree some sportsmen beleive. There are many cases where game populations have increased in the presence of coyotes. It just doesn't get reported cause who'se gonna complain? Sure, on a local level they can and do have an impact, at least  short term and I can see one being frustrated if it happens to be your farm they impact. Love em or hate em, they are a fascinating critter and deserve our respect.  The volume of responses here suggest that most do appreciate them in one way or another.

Well written answer Steve. You studied pretty close to me.

Thanks. I miss that area a lot. I really loved the North Country. There was a UVM student who did a study in the late 80's early 90's on your side of the lake. Person was his name if you are interested in looking it up. Fascinating stuff.

I believe that is one of a few I have had cross my desk at one time or another.

I dont know if they were professional wildlifers...it was DEC afterall. LOL.
As far as seeing 27...It happened. Believe it or not...I know yotes a bit, although I have never "studied" them other than what I see in the woods. I disagree with the eight per pack average...unless the Greene county yotes are way out of the ordinary. I do agree that when they are howling it is almost impossible to guess their number. The 27 never made a sound by the way...

Anyone who is interested in how the other side feels this issue should be handled should check-out the coyote thread in the Hunting Issues and Politics Forum. Comments aren't only welcome but are encouraged.

This is my last post on the subject. This is for the guys that say they have no effect on their game populations, that is bogus. It is a proven fact that they have an effect, what it is may be different but they do influence deer movement and do in fact kill a lot of fawns no matter where you are from. The deer population in certain areas may be able to sustain such killings but in most it cannot! Shawn

Well, so much for "I only kill what I eat".

All I am suggesting is that you can't judge the impact of coyotes by the pile of bones they leave behind. Lots of things kill fawns, and I would be hesitant to conclude that every one dragged to a coyote's den is one less that will prance by my stand in the fall. I do not doubt they influence deer movements. I've seen it in the hills where I grew up.  In the 80s, a 2-3 mile hike around "my" mountain would kick up 15-20 deer. A few years ago, that same hike resulted in no sightings, but the tracks in the snow told me not for lack of deer. I think they spooked long before I ever got close to them. The places where predators can inhibit deer herds are typically where habitat conditions are poor and support low deer densities anyways.

From the PA GC deer study posted in the hunting issues forum...

"These predator kills represent about one percent of the animals we were tracking during the fall of 2006, and less than one percent of all of the female deer we have followed over the past two years. Clearly, predators have not had a substantial impact on our radio-collared female deer on either study area."

2 predator kills in 2006 by one bobcat and one bear. Those darn coyotes! Granted, these are adult deer, but it does support my contention that coyote impacts are greatly exagerated.

Steve,   would you happen to know the mortality rate for coyote pups?   Just curious as to how many of these pups would be expected to survive their first year?

QuoteOriginally posted by jeff w:
Well, so much for "I only kill what I eat".

They may not be something many people eat but I have seen some really nice stuff made form their hides.

What would you make out of the pup hides?

You win jeff w not trying to get in an argument..didnt have pups on my mind just yotes in general..Ya'll have fun with this topic I am staying out of it from now on..

Jeff,

Depends where they live and what kind of human pressures they are exposed to. In areas with alot of human activity, if 2 out of 5 survived their first year, I'd be suprised. And if they live near Shawn even fewer!    :bigsmyl:  

Despite my defense of coyotes, I really don't have a problem with people killing them. I worked closely with the hunters in my study area. The were responsible for more than half of the documented mortalities of my study animals. Of 19 I collared, I confirmed 16 deaths in a 18 month study. As I recall about 8 were killed by hound hunters, 2 or three by deer hunters, 2 or three by cars and one poisoning. And one by a giant anvil that fell off a cliff onto his head...   :biglaugh:  


Not too many coyotes die of "natural" causes.

I came across a den about 20 years ago.  The pups were cute little booggers.  There were 4 of them.  They were in a hole in the ground.  They ran out and played around my feet like the puppies that they were.

I could not bring myself to killing them.  I did not tell the rancher or I might have not been able to hunt there again.

I would not fault someone from killing the pups but I could not do it. I would kill a full grown one in a heartbeat.

I think that we in south Tx have a higher loss rate than those who hunt up north.  I can not count the times that I read where the hunter up north leaves an animal over night, just in case.

Here in south Tx most nights are too warm to let something go over night.  And even during the day if you do not get to the animal in two hours or less you will be luckey to have anything left of your deer as the coyotes will eat it.

You can't leave a deer overnight here anymore either. There were coyotes on the gutpile from mine while I was dragging him out.

Smart thing to do is probably kill the whole litter but I don't think I could do it.

QuoteOriginally posted by fxe:
Great pics! It says alot about  those on this site that it can be talked about without name calling and insults.

I agree. It's good we can examine a subject with mature behavior, here.

I'm glad I read all this. I ramble around a lot and will start to carry my Ruger pistol. I have a 40 pound Boykin Spaniel that I don't want to donate to their survival.

I found a dead one a few years ago, walking the train tracks(can't do that anymore, those CSX detectives are serious about the tracks security, these days).
A friend of mine killed one two years ago.
This year I saw two and a friend on a neighboring farm saw three, and killed one.
I will be killing all I see after thinking it out.
There were none and now they are increasing around here. Some folks think that dog hunters had some fenced in and they got out. Some folks say they are coming from Tenn.
I heard, if you want a fox mount, you better get one now; that the 'yotes will wipe them out.
I always left foxes alone, except I killed a rabid one; but I will start to hunt these 'yotes.

Thanks for the informative posts, Trad Gangers!

Since this thread is still going as it should be because it is a big issue Id like to add a few things before I quit.This is just what some people ordered and will be interesting to follow.DEC has announced that they are in contract with SUNY college of environmental science and forestry in a 5 year study of yotes in NY state.According to the article that I read in NY state Outdoor News, Gordon Batcheller is the lead biologist in this project.Itll be very interesting to see the findings of this study.If poison and bounties never got it done it looks like were all gonna have to learn to hunt and live with them.As for food chain competition around here,the fisher is making a huge comeback and are known predators of yote pups in their dens.As far as the poll on killing the pups,I couldnt.Bad karma, and Ive never killed a spotted fawn because they were eating too many raspberries and morrels.  :goldtooth:

QuoteOriginally posted by jeff w:
What makes a deer or turkey 'worth' more than a coyote?

I eat deer and turkey, but not coyotes, They belong on the other side of the Mississippi River, from here.

Another thing, farmers here are having a tough time. Besides gas prices; corn and soybeans, and cotton, don't bring in the money that our tobacco, used to. Now the allotments on tobacco and price supports are gone on crops and tobacco is imported and farmers only get what the big tobacco companys want to give them. They put the tobacco warehouses out of business so nobody bids.
Deer and turkey are worth a lot to farmers who can lease out their land to turkey and deer hunters. Hunting is big money.
Coyotes seem like a problem that doesn't go away; and I don't think they belong in North Carolina. You are welcome to them.   :)

Coyotes are a 'weed', in the sense that they can adapt to a wide variety of habitats.  I completely agree that they (along with coons, badgers, skunks, foxes, etc) take their toll on upland birds and waterfowl.  The nest success rates for birds in CRP or native grassland compared those in agricultural settings are absolutely astounding. This is primarily due to predeation by the gang mentioned above.  As for deer... I have my doubts on how seriously coyotes affect morality rates in deer.  Growing up in MT and spending ALOT of time outdoors I have seen plenty of 'yotes and plenty of game.  The thing we have is HABITAT.  The more intact natural habitat you have, the less susceptible the area is to 'invasive' species.  If you want to eradicated coyotes for hurting your game populations, you had better eradicate real estate developers, feral hogs, and housecats before you start in on the yote dogs, they are just a by product.  Hunting as "big money" is a whole other conversation woodduck - lol

PS - I have shot a few with a rifle, but I would definately not have killed those pups (maybe if they were feral kittens...).  I also don't think you were in any danger from the 'wrath of the coyote" a 40lb coyote is not likely to take on a person...

*Great pics by the way, that was a lucky hike and you have got something to remember it by


Ray

Where is the poll that Osagetree was talking about?

Northern Prairie Wildlife Research center has spent a lot of time examining duck nest success in CRP fields throughout the midwest. They have found that in areas where coyotes are the dominant predator, as opposed to fox, duck nest success is often significantly higher. Coyotes suppress fox populations and possibly  skunks, coons etc.. and as a result exert less predation pressure on nesting waterfowl. With their larger home ranges, their densities are lower and they don't focus as intesively on the nesting waterfowl as the smaller predators do.

I'm reminded of a time I was gun hunting in Polk County Wisconsin where I grew up.  Saw a young feller pointing his rifle up a tree.  I asked him what he was going to shoot and he replied:  "Porkypine."  (I spelled it like he said it.)

I asked him:  "Why"

He Replied:  "They eat trees!"  This last said as if he were speaking to an idiot.

I asked him:  "If you look around, do you see a shortage of trees?"  We were in a forest.


I know there are varied opinions on this matter and there's room for all of them.  But coyotes have been around longer than we have and their populations expand and decrease in concert with the abundance of their food sources, just like any other wild animal.  Right now, because of a decrease in the severity of much of the winter kill based on almost thirty years of warmer winters, and the increase in habitat from farm set asides and posted land, the deer have exploded!  With that explosion, has come the coyote. With the coyote has come the controversy.  

To borrow from Falkner: "When the last ding-dong of doom has clanged and faded from the last worthless rock hanging tideless in the last red and dying evening, there will still be one more sound..." and that's the "Coyote's howl."  

Dan

Maybe some feel to have the feeling to eraticate these pups, think those want to make them extinct. I don't feel that's the case.
In the morth east here, I've lost two deer to them while waiting to go back in the morning. I guess ones answer is not to wait. But thats what were taught. To dark, go back. We are seeing an explosion in the polulation.  Even with doing drives with 16 hunters, I've seen them come from directions where noone had driven or posted. Their all around.
Were simply are stating to control.
The thread that was removed by our illustrious members in charge where we were asked to vote on two questions. Who would have eraticated and should hunters control or leave it to DEC? The voting showed that those who had voted at the time I did, would not have done it,yet on question #2 said Hunters should control them. Makes no sense.
Same ole same ole.
You will kill scorpians, and snakes found in your back yard, I've even seen fawns taken, yet leave the pups alone.

gwhunter,
The poll was pulled, as some felt it was not an appropriate forum for this subject. It was also a multi topic thread which is not permitted. (I'm glad it was pulled!)

Steve K.,
Excellent info, thanks for taking the time to respond. You're brave man for chimming in. Thanks!

Vermonster13,
You sure know the public reactions to topics in this forum! Your input is valued by myself,, for sure!

Montana Slim,
Did you know my last name is "WEED"?
No wonder I did not kill the pups!  :biglaugh:  

Shawn,
I think most realize and understand the way you and alot of others feel about the dogs.
I respect your outlook and agree you should kill every yote you see. Heck, I'd like to hunt them with you if I ever make it that far north.

I never thought this post would turn into such a discussion, Verm13 saw it coming.....

I intend to return to the den tomorrow. I will spy it from the other side of the hollow with my bino's to see if they have been moved. I'll probably take one of the books Ray Hammond sent me and sit for several hours reading and watching the den from a far and down wind to hopefully determine if they are there. If they are there, I hope to return a few weeks later and observe again. When the pack is finally gone I'll try digging around in the den to see if any bones left behind.


Studies mentioned here state that many fawn carcasses were found in the dens during those studies. I'm no wildlife biologist, and I always thought that a mating pair helped rear the young together. By catching game, eating as much as they can before returning to the den. Then, the adult would regurgitate the materials for the pups to eat. This went on until the parent's began teaching them to hunt. How could those yotes in the studies mentioned in this thread drag 20 or more fawns into the den and still have room for 5 pups and all those bones, hair and skulls? Maybe I need a link to educate myself more on their breeding and rearing behaviors....

Two years ago, I had two road killed deer taken to an area and left them for baiting in some yotes in hopes to shoot one. Before the baiting began, we had tried calling and had gotten responses from the yotes. But we never did get a shot at one. When they howled and carried on you would have thought there were 20 or more in a pack, probably only 4 or 5 dogs. Anyway it took the yotes a week to completely clean up the two deer we had left for them. I have to admit they were very effective stripping off the hides, I have seen people skin deer with less efficiency. They pulled the skins off over their heads to get to the good meat. We never did see a yote on the deer as they only hit it well after dark. (No spotlights were ever used!)

During that time, I did find a red fox close to the bait area dead and lying on its side in the open grassy field. I inspected the fox closely and found small puncture holes in several places on the carcass. (There did not seem to be a bite pattern) Though the fur seemed intact, I could not determine if it had been bitten several times. Or if the rabbit hunters who left as I pulled in that evening had maybe shot the fox with the attitude the fox was killing their rabbits???????  I felt it was the rabbit hunters that killed the fox! Rabbit hunters may kill more foxes than the yotes! Ever see a red fox run? You think a yote is a trickster watch them foxes run and evade!


Bobwhites are being reintroduced to this area that I hunt, and at this time there is no season for the quail. But, I saw plenty birds in the deer season. I hear them all day long during spring turkey season.

In this area, I also hunt wild turkeys. Between my wife two hunting buddies, and me we usually take at least three Toms every year from this 11,000-acre area that is designated for public hunting.


Every year for the last five to seven years we have seen or saw coyotes killed by gun hunters and black powder hunter while hunting deer or turkeys. Just this past season I got a shot at a yote running, but just my percussion cap went off. I'm sure over that time, some bow hunters have harvested a yote or two, we just don't hear about it. Heck,,, I almost got an arrow off at one this year! Mickey said it was a pipe dream at 25yrds... LOL!

I consistently harvest nice deer from this area every year, even though it is public hunting, even though we have a coyote population. I see deer, turkey's squirrels, rabbits, ducks, geese, bobwhites, foxes and other animals. I think that in my area there are a lot of hunters with fairly good ethics. We like to hunt, our DNR does a great job, Ohio has an open season for yotes and a lot of armed conscious farmers/landowners keep things around here in check. I feel blessed for what I have close to my home in regards to hunting area and game diversity, I thank God every time I'm out in the field.

STATS FOR MY State/County:
This info comes from the ODNR website and is based on bow hunter observations only!

I live in the most southern county on the Ohio map. I hunt public land bordering the next county to the east (Lawrence/Gallia line)

2005 Ohio Bowhunter Survey

The Ohio Bowhunter Survey is a program the Division of Wildlife uses to track year-to-year changes in furbearer populations, and to record sightings of special interest species such as black bear, bobcat and river otter. Because bowhunters typically spend many hours in the field observing wildlife, this group of outdoorsmen and women provide some of the best information on certain wildlife species that are difficult to monitor using other survey methods.
The information provided by bowhunters, such as the number of animals observed for each species, the amount of time spent bowhunting and the county in which that person hunted, can provide a measure of how abundant those species are in Ohio . This information is summarized and reported as the average number seen for every 1,000 hours hunted statewide.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/Hour-Distribution-2004.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/coyote-bow-map-color.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/red-fox.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/coyote-trend.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/red-fox-trend.jpg)

This subject seems to have consumed my bored mind!  :biglaugh:  

Come on Shawn, I value your input!!!

Joe that is a very well thought and written response. I would value your input in the HIP Forum anytime. Well done indeed.    :clapper:

Interesting thread!

We can hunt them 24/7 year round, for a reason.

I will kill every one I cross paths with without hesitation or remorse. I see them as a highly skilled predator and also know they will always be around reguardless of how many I take out.

JL

A simple thought for those who would kill the adult if they ran into her while out this spring but not the pups. You are still killing the pups, just not cleanly or directly. Every action we take/don't take while in the wild has an influence. We may not always see it, but we should be aware of it and take responsibility for it. Of course it is much easier when we can ignore it, but that doesn't prevent it from taking place. There is a lot to think about presented in this thread and we each need to decide for ourselves what actions we can live with. Thanks for starting it Frank, it is everything I thought it could be.

The one BIG misunderstanding between our western brothers and us "eastern" TradGangers that I have seen (kill/not kill aside) seems to be the actual SIZE of the coyotes.One member commented "I wonder how many 65# coyotes are actualy 50# coyotes with 15# of venison in there bellys"

Well friends.....This is fact!!!!! The Northeastern Coyote is a BIG animal!!!!! Just as Whitetail Deer body size increases as you go farther north so does the size of the coyotes.ALL of the adult coyotes that I have shot have wieghed over 60# and MOST were over 70#. These were all weighed on a 350# "Deer Scale".(un-dressed,live wieght) In November of 2000 at my Dad's in Schoharie Co. NY, I shot an 85# male coyote.I was sitting on a stump,with Doe-in-Heat scent on my boots.The shot was 7 yards,I was using my 1967 55# Kodiak Magnum,with a cedar arrow (made by Joe Skipp) tipped with a 125gr. Zwickey Eskimo broadhead.The coyote was skinned,hide tanned,and sewn to a piece of green felt for a rug.The hide is 6 1/2 feet long from the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail.

What has impressed me most about this thread is that it follows the TradGang "tradition" of RESPECT. People have dissagreed,but tempers have not "flared". What has also impressed me is that while they may not be "scientific fact",most opinions are based upon eye-witness accounts. Everyones accounts are believed,and that person's opinion is respected,even though it is dissagreed with. I would just like to say that I am honored to be associated with such a fine group of Gentlemen. (and Ladies)

Haven't read all the responses but I can tell you I saw several coyotes during the '05 season at a suburban spot I hunt.  Didn't see any during '06.  Why ... I don't know.  They weren't shot with firearms as it's a archery only spot, and I doubt they were killed by bow hunters.  They just moved somewhere else.  Deer are still plentiful.

I simply won't begrudge a natural predator its food because it might interfere with my hobby.  Luckily, my food source is about 4 feet away in the 'fridge.  Nature will sort out its predator/prey balance in the end.  Nor do I want to kill all of anything unless it's bugs in the house.

Osage, this is an interesting thread. I will be the first to admit I can't figure people out but it  it was only a few months ago some fella killed a little tiny pig about the size of a  Two liter bottle Coke bottle and people were telling him what a great hunter he was and a month after that a lady killed an armadillo and got hateful PM's. It's strange how somr critters grt "respect" and others don't. Thanks for a good read.

Good info Chuck...I heard a rumor about DNA tests on the yotes around here. Something about, and I quote, "canadian red wolf interbreeding" which was thought to be the reason of the large coyotes around here. Know anything about it? Im hurting my brain trying to remember where I heard it...if I find it I will post it.
The respect factor is really awesome here...anyone can say their piece without worry. Uncommon in today's world.

It was body parts that were identified and proven to be from 20 plus animals through testing. Although a lot of full size fawns were bought in. Ya ever see a coyote eat a fawn, it eats pretty much all of it as the bones are still very soft. This is a fact, DEC in NY has many documented cases of this. Ask Lee Miller who visits this site, he actually had our DEC come to investigate a den he found and was shocked at what they found. Lots and lots of deet were killed and eaten at this site. Shawn

Osage tree hope your gettin better bud.IMPO great thread great pics.One more fact if you check the red fox population versus yote populations you'll also find less red fox as the yotes kill them too.

I do not think I know. I spoke to several ENCON officials this past fall. A camera was put in a den in Greene County for only two months, 23 fawns were taken into the den. That is one den with about 3 Adult yotes and some young.

Shawn, I agree on your stance. They are the Ultimate Predators, and do a Lot of Killing in the Woodland's. Hell I admire them for their Prowess! I know a Highway worker who had to remove a Culvert Pipe for replacement, adjacent to a major Highway. Just so happen's, a Yote Mother used this as her Birthing Den, and they were amazed as to the amount of Fawn Skull's and House Pet Collars that came out of that Pipe. I can't remember the correct number, so I will not embellish it, but it was mind Blowing!

Bentpole, See the Ohio bowhunter survey results above.

In 1990 Ohio bowhunters saw 3 coyotes and 18 red foxes for 1000 hours spent in the woods.

In 2005 Ohio bowhunters saw 12 coyotes and 7 red foxes for 1000 hours spent in the woods.

You could be right! But at this time, my county is considered medium population of yotes and high in red fox population!

Some excerpts from varioous articles on the internet:

Northeastern coyotes are the largest coyotes in North America
Average weight for an adult female: 40 to 55 pounds
Average weight for an adult male: 40 to 80 pounds.

As most of us know at the trun of the century there weren't many wolves left.

Geneticists have found that eastern coyotes have varying degrees of red-wolf genes, thus accounting for their increased size and, at times, almost wolflike traits of killing deer and beaver and traveling in larger packs than western coyotes.


Thru DNA testing is was found that with the Red Wolf which was overly hunted had spread out as loners and mated with Coyotes here on the North East.
For example one of the biggest problems for the red wolf reintroduction project that was in North Carolina had been hybridization with coyotes. This is no doubt what happened in northern New England many years ago.
That is why Eastern Coyotes are larger then their Western counterparts.

Hybridization with western coyotes and the bigger gray wolves does "not" seem to occur.

I found the articles I was mentioning earlier...interesting reading either way.

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/local_news/story/fef373e9d

http://wolves.wordpress.com/2006/10/10/eastern-coyotes-and-the-red-wolf-guest-opinion/

Here's a link to an abstract for a paper I co-authored with some colleagues a few years ago. Sorry, full text doesn't appear. Canid genetics are pretty interesting.

http://www.umich.edu/%7Eesupdate/julaug2001/fascione2.htm

I guess things have changed in the last ten years.40-80 pounds is a range, not an average... The heaviest coyote I ever encountered in Plattsburgh was about 50#, a male. I probably weighed 75-100 over the few years I studied them and can't recall a female much over 40. That compares to 20-25# for a western coyote.

we have a pack of four to five coyotes around our area just outside of town in the suburbs according to my nieghbores, never seen one and did not believe the rumors until last night when one came in my yard, my labrador was going crazy at the window, I walked outside to put out the trash, and there it was, about 30 yards away on the side of the street, at first I thought that it was a dog, until it walked under the street light, it made yip!yip!yip! sound that I have not heard before, never thought that I would see a coyote in southeast Louisiana!!!

Osagetree, Thanks for the pics of those pups and I myself couldn't kill those little fella's knowing my higher power created them for a reason.I can understand they can become a problem but I myself see a bigger problem in my home state of Maryland and that is those P.V.C. perk pipes just about on every farm here on the Eastern Shore and I would rather see a Yote anyday than a piece of P.V.C. Pipe growing out of the ground.I live near Steve K. and where I hunt I have heard we have Yotes in that area and to confirm that I know two fella's who each has shot one several years ago but I have never wittnessed one yet.Two years ago a friend of mine and I hunted on Thanksgiving morning and it began to storm that morning with lightning so we hightailed it back to the truck and took shelter.The storm passed quickly and as we drove down the mile long lane we spotted and video taped close to 100 turkeys and a nice one racked buck.The last few years the turkeys have declined to around a group of 20 to 30 and we haven't noticed them as much.This declined wasn't due to Yotes but the removal of timber on a farm next to us and a soon to be housing development on the other.I know they can become a problem if too many but we are also the problem ourselves with the decline of wildlife.I could remember when we had a one week only deer season with a gun and a one deer only and now we have a 12 deer with each weapon.I enjoyed it more when I was younger hunting with a gun opening day and now I prefer the stickbow because I like to give every animal a fair chase and a chance to live.Just this past fall a buck rubbed 4 of my three foot tall pine trees in my backyard in a small developement and at first I wanted revenge and then I thought this was their space and we pushed them out.I see more and more that we are the problem at times and not a yote.Great pics of those pups and I welcome them anyday over a perk pipe.God Bless! Keefers

This is real nice, a delicate subject discussed with the most thought, heart and manners possible. It has been a pleasure to read and I learned a few things.  :clapper:

This is certainly an interesting thread.

Ok, since we as bowhunters often place ourselves as one of the apex predators in the system, as a predator your conditioned response would be to kill the pups and the bitch if she was found.

A bear would do this, a lone male coyote would do this, certainly a wolf would kill the pups. Other predators would not hesitate either.

If you were lost in the woods and a few little bouncing morsels of protein came out to say hi, your stomach would probably be the internal organ calling the shots.

No doubt those cubs are cute and adorable, and the coyote gets my respect for being so adaptable regardless of the environs it inhabits. He is certainly God's dog.

Ishi would have had the little guys on a spit for dinner. Any other aborginal people would be sitting around a fire in short order with tender pups roasting over the flames. Some had said they would kill the bitch if they saw her, I think most of us would, and when we discovered she was lactating we would know we doomed her pups, to a slow and certain demise.

Nature is not sentimental in how things work out.  

What if your kids or wife were with you? If your response is to kill the pups could you do it in front of them? Could you explain your actions in a manner that they could understand? Ah! There in lies the difference between civilized man and animals as predators.  

I for one would kill the pups, in a year, only one will likely be alive in most cases due to the trevails of nature.

If these were feral cats or rats, most would not hesitate.

I can appreciate the viewpoint some could not or would not kill the pups, to each their own.

Gary Carvajal

This 9" x 5" coyote skull was found yesterday within an 1/4 mile of the pups den.  I found no other parts with the skull. Another first for me, but I would have to guess it is from an adult. Compare to my 9 month old lab head;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/IMAG0030.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/IMAG0032.jpg)

 My goal now is to try and learn about the coyote's as I do intend to return for an observation from a distance. Then, once I feel sure they have vacated the den, I will fish around for signs of their kills brought into the den. That is if they are still there!

I am looking and learning to procure and set some snares for another return with different goals for next January. Between trying to take one with my selfbow, I'll have the snares to back me up. Sure would like to have a coyote skin quiver and a complete skull for my desk!

As it transpires, I'll update my findings on such!

Next spring if I find coyote pups, I'll still just walk right on by with the utmost appreciation for the species.

Any input on the skull?

The teeth were not all there, but what was there did not seem to be worn much. Mabye killed by parvo,,, heart worms,,, farmer,,, other yotes,,, but suley it did not starve to death. Too many deer and turkeys!
 :smileystooges:    :knothead:    :wavey:

osage, excellent pics a rare opportunity to see the pups. if you are serious about learning about coyotes an excellent book is by gerry parker called "Eastern Coyote and the story of it's success" i've learned more about coyotes reading that book than in years of trapping and calling them.  the are amazing creatures, you'd be surprised at alot of the common myths about yotes.

I can't see the skull pic to see how wore down the teeth are but you said not much...i just hope the yote didn't die of mange.

interesting thread...i need to read the whole thing.

Thanks Drew, I'll try to get the book at the library.

I returned to the den this evening and on the way in I found a perfect coyote track in this mole hill. The track does not show up to well in the pic, but it's a coyote and not domestic dog as the toe in the track are slightly pointed. I mean the front of the track is more V shaped instead of round like a domestic dogs.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/2ndtrip.jpg)

I sat for an hour and a half across the hollow with the bino's observing the den entrance. As I sat still as a mouse, 6 deer passed through on a trail 20yrds or so above the den. I watched the den entrance until it was too dark to film. Then I headed out for the house.

A piece down the trail I found some fairly fresh coyote scat. From the dried outer surface I estimated the scat to be from early this morning sometime. A poke with a stick told me it was still soft under the surface. the funny thing is no hair in it, but it sure smelled like coyote scat and not dog.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/2ndtrip1.jpg)

Two hills over from where I found the scat is the small village I live in. Could this yote be raiding the village for food? Scat had no hair in it and was found between the den and the village....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Osagetree/2ndtrip2.jpg)

They very well could be, especially if anyone is leaving dogfood out. Coyotes are smart enough to work only as hard as they need to to eat.