Trad Gang

:help:    :help:    :help:

leatherneck, that's funny right there but, ole Ben would have a coniption waiting! We'd never get a bit of peace!    :laughing:

This HH thing is really catching,before all these new threads I didn't give these bows much thought,since then the desire is fired! Love Bens pictures of downunder,but as it is I HATE WAITING FOR BOWS to be built.My Motto is:"I would much rather be shooting a bow than waiting for it" I noticed most bowyers have bows in stock,now the decision.I truly believe its all Mudds fault !LOL

Go Rob!   :thumbsup:

Steve, Craig has a few in stock bows listed on his website. Might give it a looksee to see if he has one in your specs.   :thumbsup:

bought my Redman(68",53@28) from the stock bows on the website and love it!I have unstrung my other bows.Planning on a wes special with ....Ebony!  Can't decide on the color glass yet.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wannabe1:
leatherneck, that's funny right there but, ole Ben would have a coniption waiting! We'd never get a bit of peace!     :laughing:  

\\

You got that right! And you all dont have to live beside him.

Steve, the neat thing about ordering from Hill is the wait is so short you hardly have time to get antsy.  :)

That is a fact! I ordered my Tembo on the 15th of Dec. and it's supposed to be here tomorrow or the next day.    :thumbsup:

I am really getting...I don't know...

I know that my "Robin Hood" is sitting there finished and ready to ship.

I am waiting on two checks to arrive this week so I can finish paying for it.

It is so tempting to just go ahead, write and send my check knowing the other two should be here before mine gets there but should something go wrong I'd be in trouble.

I'm gonna find my birth certificate and try putting "patience" in my name...lol

Thanks for letting me vent a little frustration.

God bless,Mudd

Just got off the phone with Craig and ordered my second HH. Big 5, string follow with carmalized bamboo. 68" 63#@28 and best of all its a lefty.
I had to get another one before i wore my Wesley out. This is gonna be fun!

Hey Gang-

I've been playing with my new Hill for a couple of weeks now, and find it hard to put down. I find myself wanting to hold the bow while watching T.V. This is my first time getting the gloss finish, it really makes the grain in the wood pop.

Darren

(http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/tradlongbow/fam026.jpg)

QuoteOriginally posted by Blueridge:
Just got off the phone with Craig and ordered my second HH. Big 5, string follow with carmalized bamboo. 68" 63#@28 and best of all its a lefty.
I had to get another one before i wore my Wesley out. This is gonna be fun!

craig tell you what the tempered boo color would be?

originally posted by Rob:
craig tell you what the tempered boo color would be?

Craig told me he buys the bamboo already carmelized; Would it be different shades from the same supplier?

Darren

Head up Mudd!   Things will work out.   You're old enough to do what's right... Read Matthew 6:34 Brother!   That Robin Hood will be in Sherwood Forest, Missouri in no time!

QuoteOriginally posted by tradlongbow:
originally posted by Rob:
craig tell you what the tempered boo color would be?

Craig told me he buys the bamboo already carmelized; Would it be different shades from the same supplier?

Darren

"carmalizing" means heat tempering.  when i heat temper bamboo with a propane torch, it will turn from light tan/green to amber to orange to chocolate, depending on how long the flame lingers.  the heat will make the bamboo resin rise to the surface and form a 'varnish' coat that changes the molecular structure of the bamboo - makes it incredibly hard, tough and durable.

i spoke with jason about my ordered big 5's tempered boo limbs, they'll be an amber color under clear glass - the edges will also be ambered.

No worries Cookus!

I know to take every thought captive.

Thanks for the reminder!

God bless,Mudd

I have a 60lb big five a old friend gifted me with but i just cannot shoot the dang thing. I envy those of you who can.

Mudd - If you need a little help and those checks don't show up soon enough let me know.  Would hate to see that bow get away from you at this stage.

Rob, no he did not. Glad you brought that up. I would like it to be a honey/ amber color and assumed that's what it would be, clear glass of course. Jason an I had talked about this a week or so ago. Will give him another call. Thanks

QuoteOriginally posted by Blueridge:
Rob, no he did not. Glad you brought that up. I would like it to be a honey/ amber color and assumed that's what it would be, clear glass of course. Jason an I had talked about this a week or so ago. Will give him another call. Thanks

tell jason you want the same as me - amber faces and edges!  dark amber is best on 'boo!  hope that's what we both get .....

Rob, no he did not. Glad you brought that up. I would like it to be a honey/ amber color and assumed that's what it would be, clear glass of course. Jason an I had talked about this a week or so ago. Will give him another call. Thanks

Dang it!  I was hopin' that maybe by some chance, or twist of fate Craig might show up at Kzoo, but the way you guys are ordering bows he's not gonna get out of his shop til next fall.   :archer:

Rob , sounds about right. Thanks you're a big help

Tw,thanks for the heads up.Just can't make up the mind ,an age thing.

QuoteOriginally posted by Blueridge:
Rob , sounds about right. Thanks you're a big help

lemme know what the ekin fellers tell ya .... thanx.

Rob , sounds about right. Thanks you're a big help

I spoke to Jason last week, he told me since, I posted the pics of my bow, he's been getting a lot of calls about the caremlized bamboo. And I just got off the phone with Craig, he told me that the orders are coming in as well for the Carmelized Bamboo Hills.

This year is going to be good for Ekins, with the Robin Hood bow and guys wanting new bows with the carmelized limbs.

Darren

Not sure why my posts are double???

I have gone on a different tangent and ordered a Hill I have not had before ... and believe me I have had or have orederd for customers just about every wood combo going ...

Be interesting to see how this one pans out !

darren's big 5 w/caramelized boo ...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/darren1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/darren2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/darren3.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/darren4.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/darren5.jpg)

Drool!

That's another awesome looking Hill you've posted there Rob.

God bless,Mudd

PS: Thank you Pavan for your offer of help and thank you also Rob!

My "Robin Hood" isn't at any risk of being lost though. I am way ahead of my payment schedule with Craig, it's just me that was whining...lol

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
I have gone on a different tangent and ordered a Hill I have not had before ... and believe me I have had or have orederd for customers just about every wood combo going ...

Be interesting to see how this one pans out !

spit it out man!  what did you order?????

I wanted a Tembo as I haven't had one yet. Plus, it will be one to stay as I'm dedicating it to my son when he gets old enough to shoot it. All he talks about is shooting bows with his Papa!   :D

Can't say more or I'll be giving away the excitement of getting it.   :)

Is anyone adding inlays to their new bows?   Craig does some super work!

Darren that's a great looking bow, what is the riser wood ? CocoBolo? That's what I got on my Wesley and ordered dark Shedua on my B5.

Man, you guys are re-infecting me with the bug    :banghead:

I want a new one, but my best friend and I are trying to get the $$$ together to open a fly shop, so it'll have to wait. I decided if we get it up and running, I'll celebrate the 1 year mark with a new bow.

Mine's nearly ready for the glue-up!

 :goldtooth:

Oh my Lord, did I read right, pg. 5, Rob has ordered a new Big 5?...Sweet!  :thumbsup:  

This post reminds me of the commercial of the boys, bragging about their broken bones and injuries!  :laughing:  

A toast to all, who Keep Howard's Spirit and Love of this Sport Alive!

Frank, I am now 99% a Howard Hill only fan. I do have one recurve from Maddog Archery that I can't let go as it is #1 of his new 60" recurve model.

Went through an enormous amount of different bows just to find that I love and shoot Hills the best. Nothing like a good ole American Classic to sooth the savage beast!    :archer:  

'Course this is only one mans opinion.    :D

Let's see, Ben probably has either a "Cougar" or a "Ruffed Grouse" coming....what say ye Mate?

Nah, it's two men's opinion at least.  :jumper:

I am thinking that I might have to get myself a Half breed later in the year.

Inner lams of bamboo and outer lams of yew under black glass with some nice dark riser wood. 68" and around 48-50@28.

I'm sure dreaming is ok!!..lol

God bless,Mudd

PS: Hi My name is Mudd and I'm a "Hillbowahaolic"!!

Roy, you would cover the beauty of Yew with black glass?!   :eek:

Blueridge-

Yes, That's Cocobola. It looks great under the high gloss finish.

Darren

Rob just heard from Craig. "dark amber/honey colored, very nice looking!".  Leaving for Tanzania in a week should be ready when I get back.

Yeah, I think you're right TW.

That would be just... well.. wrong huh?...lol

God bless,Mudd

Spanky... I have had the Ruffed Grouse and Cougar ...

Rob ... You'll really like it

Its got blue glass and foam core ...... heheheh

I ain't telling ya nuthin !

But there is an insect in my office ... its buzzin around ... is it a bee ? No .. i think it may be a W#%^&

I don't think I have ever even seen a pic of a Wasp there Ben! Make sure you post a few when she gets down under! Conrats!

Spanky

Neither have I Ken thats why i jumped in the deep end and went for something new . If i brought another Redman , Halfbreed or Wesley home my girl would leave me ...
hang on a minute , if thats the case ...
where did I put Craig's number ... a new Redman t/d would be nice .....
  :D

Ben, I too would like to see the Wasp. Have yet to see one of those.

This bug is real bad.And i thought i had a problem.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
... Its got blue glass and foam core ...... heheheh ...

:scared:    :scared:    :scared:    :scared:    :scared:    :scared:

Mudd, black glass over yew limbs!  :scared:  Might as well spray paint the Mona Lisa!  

Don't be too hard on our ol buddy Mudd there David. Some of the old masters built some mighty fine yew bows with colored glass - it's faster than clear you know, and I think it looks cool!     :thumbsup:    

   (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/ShultzFavorite1.jpg)
   (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/ShultzFavorite3.jpg)
   (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/ShultzFavorite4.jpg)
   (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/ShultzFavorite.jpg)

Like my Mate Ben, i've got a secret surprise coming too but I ain't tellin nothin!     :thumbsup:  
Spanky     :archer:

Classy looker there Spanky!  :thumbsup:  I like it.

Spanky-

I like that brown glass. Is the riser Myrtle?

Darren

Lads , my Miller Ol' Tom is brown glass over Yew limbs and looks fantatstic , much like Spanky's bow up top.

I like coloured glass .

Mudd...it would look sweeet !!!!!!!

hey ben, what's the spex on yer ol' tom?  

and is it a string follow?

"Show-Me!" Ben....lol  

I am from Missouri you know...lol

God bless,Mudd

Spanky, how many of those Schulz jobs would you own right now if they were still being made?  I have two and that Pete George yew/brown glass, I am curious to compare it to my son's Timberline yew/clear glass.  I have a hard time convincing people how hard those old bows shoot.

I have to concede that Spanky's bow looks pretty sharp. I meant no disrespect toward Roy or anyones personal choice. I myself would not cover Yew as I like to see the color change as it ages but, again, Spanky's bow looks very nice!   :thumbsup:

TW don't worry about anything you said to me.

It's all good!!

I can take a good ribbing any time and even someone questioning my judgment.

Shoot there are lots of times I question it myself...lol

God bless,Mudd

Thanks Mudd, I appreciate that!

Spanky, who built that bow? I did a search for American Longbow but, came up with nothing that resembled the one you have above.

With half breeds and colored glass, i think they look nice with the yew in the middle and the bamboo on the outside.

Allright lads here she is ...
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/benmaher3006/PICT0133.jpg)

Rob, she is 66" 53# @ 27 " and string follow . Perhaps the sweetest bow in my stable . Now I love clear glass over pretty woods as much as the next guy but grew up with black and brown glass on my bows ... they just look deadly in my opinion . The Myrtle Dave uses is the best I have seen .
As for clear glass on my 'curves ... no way !

(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/benmaher3006/PICT0136.jpg)

(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/benmaher3006/PICT0129.jpg)

oooooooo.  so that's what i have to look forward to in about 3-4 months.  cool beans.  man, that myrtle is stunning - what we luthiers call 'quilt flame', real purty.

you switched from boo to yew for the cores?

how's the string follow feel on release and shoot for ya?

bottom line - congrats ben!    :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:    :clapper:

You guys got it bad....Glad I`m reformed and hav`nt even looked at the hill pics ya`ll posted......RC

Ben-

How's that book from Dave Miller?

Darren

Its a good 'booklet' much the same as John Schulz "Hitting them like Howard Hill "

Pavan, if I had the money I would own every model that John built...AND Pete George!! These old bows are some hard hitters and shoot really well.

That is a John Shultz bow called "The Favorite". Yew limb cores, brown glass, Myrtle riser with a string follow profile...a really sweet shooter! American Longbow Company was the name of his business and one of his sons Steve is trying to bring it back.

Thanks for the complements on the Shultz bow guys, but she belongs to another great guy now! That and the Pete George I had were the bows I had to sell last year to fund my sons adoption. I miss them dearly, but they couldn't have been sacrificed for a greater cause!

I have some really, really cool stuff coming this year so stay tuned!   :goldtooth:  

Spanky

Spanky,

I got to handle one of them (roughed out) last Saturday.  A blessed man you are! Family and bows.

Ray

Sweet looking bow you got there Ben!!!

Thank you Ben!! That's a slick looking bow.

God bless,Mudd

PS: I guess I need to get some pictures of my Osage Royale by Chuck Jones. It's another sweet shooting Hill style bow.

Thanks Ray! I would have to say your pretty lucky yourself as you get to see and handle those works of art before I do! You'll have to get Nate to fill you in on what we've come up with now...you ain't seen nothin yet Bud!   :goldtooth:  

Spanky

Pics Mudd ! We need Pics !
Always wanted to see one of those back fromback when he advertsied in the old days of TBM .

Spanky, c'mon mate give us a hint !

Can't do it Ben     :goldtooth:    Yes Mudd, we must have pics!

Spanky

Bug nothin its an outbreak.

Horrible epidemic   :eek:  .  And here I was happy with the rack full of Hills and Northern Mist and Fred Anderson bows I possess (or that possess me).  Now you guys go and talk about Nate's bows and show these Hills like I don't have (yet).  Have you no shame???    :nono:

I hope you enjoy seeing this simple beauty.

My Osage Royale by Chuck Jones 66" 52@28.

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/Osage%20Royale%20by%20Chuck%20Jones/DSC01051.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/Osage%20Royale%20by%20Chuck%20Jones/DSC01052.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/Osage%20Royale%20by%20Chuck%20Jones/DSC01053.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/Osage%20Royale%20by%20Chuck%20Jones/DSC01054.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/Osage%20Royale%20by%20Chuck%20Jones/DSC01055.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/Osage%20Royale%20by%20Chuck%20Jones/DSC01056.jpg)

Thanks for looking.

God bless,Mudd

there are SO many good american flat longbow bowyers out there in longbow-land.  way cool!   :thumbsup:

That is a cool looking bow Mudd! Imagine what it's gonna look like after it ages a bit!

Congrats,
Spanky

Hey David, let me go ahead and send ya over the edge Bud!  :D  

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/brochure_pics_034.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/sunsethill42010.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/sunsethill22010.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/brochure_4.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/brochure_3.jpg)

I just ain't right!   :archer:

Spankyneal i think i could help you and take some of those leftys off your hands.  :bigsmyl:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!  Now that just can't be right to do a guy like that.  I even see a lefty Nate Steen bow there--o, the torment!  :banghead:

Dern you guys, you all ain't right. I am trying to resist till Denton Hill to fondle and shoot some Hill's before ordering but you all are making it tough to wait. I already have a list started of bows to order. Help.
Jack

This is like being a kid in a candy store! You guys are killing me with these beauties. Love all the pics as they provide great wood combo ideas for future bows!   :thumbsup:

no no no - no talk of buying, selling, trading - that's strictly for the classifieds.    :readit:    :campfire:

You guys are killin' me....this thread has been fun to watch!    :biglaugh:  

Spanky, if you leak one word, no more rep. status for you!

blueslfb That is just sad.

I am sorry that your plan didn't work out for you.

God bless,Mudd

Ooooh snap!    :readit:   :notworthy:    :notworthy:    :notworthy:    :notworthy:  

Don't worry guys the first one that Ray fondled will be here shortly with pics to follow as always! This is the best Hill thread we've had in a long time - I love it!

Spanky

Oooops!

There is a town near here that had a choice, a university or the state insane asylum, they chose the insane asylum.  When anyone would exhibit traits of OCD everyone would say "they should take you to Cherokee".  Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, OCD, is an anxiety disorder and is characterized by recurrent, unwanted thoughts (obsessions) and/or repetitive behaviors.  
 Apparently, it is addictive.  I almost, almost put in an order for every Hill model available at one time.  Something for the kids to fight over after my wife kills me.

Sorry Rob!

I wasn't thinking... just responded with a knee jerk reaction.

I'll watch it closer from now on.

God bless,Mudd

nah, no problem at all, roy.   :wavey:

Can you still get the grey glass?  That is cool!

Josh

Yes the gray glass is still available! I think it would look really cool on the back with a white belly!

Spanky

Was talking to Nate the other day and he told me........!  :)  Guess, I can't say either or he'll take away my "friend" status.

Just think you'll all be "impressed"!  :)

I have tried to get a variety. They are so stable and fun to shoot. They just fit me!

1) wesley w/ extra veneer of bacote on back for camo...its a real shooter
2)T/D cheetah matched to the wesley...same arrows for elk! or backpack trips with an elk inlay and extra cocobolo center lam w/ cocobolo riser
3)Redman...all yew..new in November w/ elk tips and black riser! Love it.
4)Redman for the wife
5)An excellent Northern Mist Classic 68". I LOVE this bow too!!! Unbelievably quiet and fast...hard to beat light stained curly maple veneers. If you love HH bows, try one.
6)hill style Black Rhino for the little one
7)Red Bear longbow for the little bigger one
8)XXX Got caught up in a big lay-off at work...so when I get rehired somewhere we will see!

Yup, I am infected. Why do I check the classifieds????

I wonder if Ben dropped the string inside in that photo?

Mate, are you suggesting that my target panic , whilst at full draw inside the house , might bet the better of me ? ...
No, better not answer that...   :saywhat:
Any word on your delivery date for the new addition?

Just yesterday, I missed a shrub elephant at thirty metres, and then found myself having to try really hard not to drop the string as I drew and held on various spots out on the oval.

Craig told me it was nearly ready for glue-up a few days ago.

Holding and not dropping the string is an ongoing battle for me ...
it's my great white whale ...

a big5 craig built for me a few years back ...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hhb52.jpg)

Nice Rob, what is the riser wood ? I changed mine at the last minute to Padauk.

that was cocobolo.  

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hhb51.jpg)

the new big5 is paduak, just for something different.

Very nice.Im glad the wait isnt that long i might go crazy.Rob is that locator grip comfortable?I have locator grips on my MOAB and thier great i just wasnt sure because thier is lots more wood in the handle.

wouldn't have a hill-style without a locator.  i have a moab.  there is a big difference 'tween that handle shape and a hill w/locator.

I haven't shot the locator grip but, I do like the dished over the straight. My "Owl" is straight and my "Redman" is dished. The new "Tembo" will have a dished grip also. Hopefully it will be here today!   :pray:

I'm so bitten by the HH but unfortunately I can't scratch it. I want one soooo bad! Thanks for sharing all the great pics!

Keeping the Faith!
Magnus

Wannabe1 are you going to be ok or is it time to play sick and wait for the USPS man.   ;)

I am playing sick waiting for the USPS man!   :laughing:

more hill-style eye candy ...

my used-to-be ol' big5
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/b5braced.jpg)

st. charles pac yew t/d and busted bunny during a texas hunt (yep, them was woodies i was huntin' with, and ace broadheads) ... i loved that pac yew but at 64" it was too durn short, i need a good 68" hill-style longbow ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/py4.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/py3.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/py6.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/mm2006-rob-bunny.jpg)

a nice hill wesley that came and went ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/wes2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/wes3.jpg)

Rob, you don't know how bad I wanted that Wesley! I just didn't have the funds at the time. I wish Jay would make that Pac Yew in 68-70". I'd place an order in a heart beat.

Definitely eye candy.And i hope you are going to be all right Wannabe1.I will be looking for pictures when i get home from work tonight lets have some action photos  :bigsmyl:

Rob what did you not like about the 64"? I tend to favor shorter bows. 50-52" on my curves. Love my 68" R/D long bow too. Just prefer shorter.

Keeping the Faith!
Magnus

I don't know about Rob but, I found mine to be not as stable when shooting like a 68" on up bow. It shot pretty good but, I couldn't get consistent with it so, I let it go.

the pac-yew longbow is currently only available in one length - 64".  even though it's got some backset/reflex in the limbs, it's not good for my 29+" draw length.  might get away with 28", but would be perfect for 27".  it is an amazing longbow in both draw and release.  i'm just emailed jay to see if he'd build me a t/d classic at 68".  i ain't holding my breath, though.

i'm with tw - for hill type longbows, the design predicates the absolute need for a longer overall bow length, to better work with such a short riser and long limbs.  far more so if there's no backset, and they're straight, or worse yet with bellyset (string follow).

I too pull 29". Rob, let me know what Jay says. Maybe enough of us long draws can get him to build a new form.

i'll report back here on this thread ....

I just received these teasers from Craig.

The real hard truth is that I brow beat him into getting these to me..lol Sorry Craig!

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/bows003.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/bows002.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/bows001.jpg)

God bless,Mudd

That's a real beauty Roy. I'm looking forward to your shooting report. Congratulations!   :thumbsup:    :clapper:

Lookin good Roy! That Texas Ebony looks real nice with the Yew!   :thumbsup:  I bet your really chompin at the bit now huh!

Congrats,

Spanky

Roy, it looks okay I suppose ... i know that when mine gets here in a few weeks it will look better though...because it'll be left handed!

Only kiddin'... they look fantastic. I can't wait for mine . For a kid who went to sleep every nite with Images of Errol Flynn loosing Grey goose justice running through his head , and daydreamed of Sherwood adventures it'll be just the ticket methinks.
Thanks for posting the pics Mudd.

If you haven't seen my new bow yet, follow the link below.   :thumbsup:

http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=098932

Mudd that's a beauty. I think I like the Royal better though. Then again what do I know.

Keeping the Faith!
Magnus

There will be more pictures posted once I get it here to "Sherwood" in L.A., MO...lol

God bless,Mudd

Mudd,That is one nice looking bow !This will definately go with your green outfit!LOL, Roy what are the stats on your new bow?

Nice bow Mudd! You guys have gotten me in big trouble. I have a HH coming and a Mohawk coming to test drive. I sure hope I don't like them both!

QuoteOriginally posted by leatherneck:
Nice bow Mudd! You guys have gotten me in big trouble. I have a HH coming and a Mohawk coming to test drive. I sure hope I don't like them both!

two very different longbows - don't compare them, love them each for what they are, as the superb individuals they be.  

GET THEM BOTH!  

read that again!     :readit:        :campfire:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by leatherneck:
Nice bow Mudd! You guys have gotten me in big trouble. I have a HH coming and a Mohawk coming to test drive. I sure hope I don't like them both!

two very different longbows - don't compare them, love them each for what they are, as the superb individuals they be.  

GET THEM BOTH!  

read that again!      :readit:          :campfire:  [/b]

Thanks for the kind words. Now pay heed to what Rob says....lol He's right on the money with his assessment.

God bless,Mudd

Rob/Roy are both correctomundo! I had a 68" Mohawk that I got on a trade from Papa Bear(Larry) and I regret to this day ever letting that thing slip from my hands. It was one smooth shooting longbow!   :thumbsup:

I really love the pics of the HH bows you guys have been posting. But I especially appreciate finally seeing a pic of a Hill bow with a myrtle riser. I'm going to be ordering a Hill bow soon and have considered having it made with woods native to the Pacific Northwest where I live. I thought of myrtle for the riser but wasn't sure how it would look with yew limbs.

Ya`ll did it!!!I`m working out a trade for one now.I`ll have a "Hawk" and "Hill" in the house...Life is good.Thank You Lord.RC

:biglaugh:    :biglaugh:

Wow, now there's a big surprise RC...like we didn't know that was gonna happen!   :goldtooth:  
Hope it's a good one for ya!

Spanky

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by leatherneck:
Nice bow Mudd! You guys have gotten me in big trouble. I have a HH coming and a Mohawk coming to test drive. I sure hope I don't like them both!

two very different longbows - don't compare them, love them each for what they are, as the superb individuals they be.  

GET THEM BOTH!  

read that again!       :readit:            :campfire:   [/b]

No,No. Our chat Rob didn't fall on deaf ears. I understand they are completely different. I wanted to try them both and Vince was more than willing to ship me one out. I'm gonna have a fun week next week. Maybe an expensive one to boot.

I agree, everyone that like longbows should have a hill and a mohawk. Darren

OK, I just gotta ask this question--I own five Hill bows--four made by Craig and one by John Schulz.  The Schulz made bow is right on the weight marked, the other four are all 4# heavier than marked weight on my scale and others I have checked them on.  All my other bows (about 14) all weigh essentially as marked on my scale.  A buddy got a new Hill 3 weeks ago and it was the same way when he checked it on his scale--right about 4# heavier than marked.  What gives?  Anyone else found this to be the case?  It has not created a problem for me but could for some people if they are ordering right at their max shooting weight.  I love all my Hills and would order again (and am sorely tempted because of this thread    :D   but I would seriously consider ordering 4# lighter than what I was shooting for I think.

it's all a question about the scales used and how carefully you take a weight reading on yer bow.

i use an easton digital scale.  it's extremely accurate.  is use the "clothes pin on the shaft" to check the draw length weight. the shaft is a 32" 5/16" woodie, marked at 26" to 31" in 1/2" increments, from the depth of the nock's throat.

when the clothes pin hits the riser i let down. the scaled weight is retained on the easton scale.  i do this three times, just to make sure.

imo, analog spring scales just aren't as accurate as digital scales.  ymmv.

I realize that Rob, but my spring scale says my other bows are on target weight...my Hills are 4# above.  Why just the Hills?

QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
I realize that Rob, but my spring scale says my other bows are on target weight...my Hills are 4# above.  Why just the Hills?

what i said - spring scales just aren't as accurate as digital scales.  easy to calibrate digital ... not gonna happen with analog.  if three bowyers each had analog spring scales, they might get three different readings on the same bow.  it happens far more than we think.  then there's the marketing fudge factor - the bow is marked 55# and shoots a fast arrow, but on a digital scale it reads 59# .... hmmmmmmmmm.

I agree with Rob...it's probably just the difference between Craigs scale and others. However I will interject one more thought pertaining to bows in general. When bows are made from natural materials, and built to a formula, weight differences will occur due to variations in the material. Sometimes the weight can be brought in line while maintaining proper tiller, and sometimes not. That's why one bow can have 10lbs shaved off after it's built and the next can only have 2-3. At least that's how I see it.

Spanky

true, spanky, but if i ask for a 60# @ 29" bow, i better not get one tillered at 64# or 56#.  a good bowyer will be able to get within 2# of the target draw length weight, most at less than a pound.  more bowyers are starting to use really good digital scales like the easton (not cheap at around $140).  like i said, there is a bunch of fudging going on with draw/holding weights recorded on too many stick bows.

Dave,
that is my experience with Craig's bow too .

My experience as well, Dave.  Have owned several Hills over the years.  Most have been 2-3# heavy.  One was right on.  This is on a spring scale on which almost all my other bows, (more than 50 over the years) have come out at weight. Of course, some of those were off a tad, too.

I'm in BIG trouble guys. I just got a Halfbreed in the mail for a test drive. Now mind you Jason sent this bow out on Thur. and I got it already. Thats fast. Anyhow, it's time to pick out some woods.    :bigsmyl:    
Thanks for everyones help.

Ooooh Yaaaah! You done gone and got bit! We'll be looking forward to pics of the new addition soon!

Anyhow, it's time to pick out some woods

Well... I'd suggest yew , or perhaps maybe yew or if you are feeling adventurous what about yew ?

Seriously , then caramalised 'boo looks crazy good as does juniper, yew or Elm over bamboo cores . If you straight woods and no 'boo I'd recommend wither yew or elm .

Myself, I'm partial to yew ...   :goldtooth:

i'm partial to nothing but 'boo.  maybe the caramalized flavor, too - gotta see how my b5 turns out.    :wavey:

I gotta brag on my "Owl" because she shoots very nice. Osage is by far my favorite bow wood. Don't know why I just didn't go for the Crocodile when I ordered it.   :p

for woods, it's gotta be osage or yew for me, in that order.  

but man, the smoooothness of grass limbs is *SO* good!!!   :thumbsup:  

unless the cane or 'boo is stained, it's pretty plain jane looking.  but heat tempering ("caramelizing") really takes the grass coloring to a whole new level.  

i know that first hand from flaming raw bamboo tubes.  it can go from near very light tan or just cut green, to amber or orange or dark chocolate, and at the same time the properties are changed into a completely different substance that's incredibly durable and *stiff*.

My favourite is yew (my second, better-fitting, Redman is in the works), followed by normal yellow bamboo, and someday perhaps an osage Crocodile will make its way here. Another fellow in town just got a Crocodile, so I am looking forward to seeing that. My preference is for clear glass, and for some reason, I prefer my Hills to be the ones made out of all the same timber in the limbs, rather than mixtures.

Ben said
I prefer my Hills to be the ones made out of all the same timber in the limbs, rather than mixtures.

Great minds think alike ! Me too!

OK, Ben amd Orion, didn't think I would be only one who experienced this little discrepancy.

I too am partial to yew!

I can say it hasn't always been that way though.

There was a time when it was all "grass" but in my opinion yew is.... well it's yew!

God bless,Mudd   :archer:

My mate Tony, who now owns my previous Redman, weighed that bow and found it to be spot-on. He also weighed other bows to make sure of the readings. They all seemed good.

it would be great if there was an easy way to standardize weight scale calibration.  until then, YMMV!   ;)

Yew for me as well. I already have a Blacktail recurve and a Blacktail longbow with yew limbs and I see no reason to be switching woods when I order my Hill.

That said, I'm finding it a little troubling to read here that if I order a 54# @ 27" Hill bow I might actually receive a 58# @ 27" bow. Sorry, but that just won't cut it.

Rooselk,
it is my experience that the bows will come in at weight or heavier , never lighter. I have had many Hills that came in bang on as requested poundage wise.

So far this is what I want. 66" 54@27 Wesley Special.
Limbs- I'm leaning toward caramelized boo limbs(I too prefer the amber color).
Riser-locator grip with ??? Not sure of the handle wood. What do you all think Texas Ebony will look like with the amber limbs? Suggestions ?

Hey Mike, if ya go caramelized then anything with brown, black or red would be my choice (Cocobolo, TX Ebony, Ebony, Macassar, Bocote, etc.) If ya go with the amber then Osage...yeah baby!!   :thumbsup:  

Spanky

the big 5 i just ordered has caramelized 'boo under clear glass and paduak riser and tip overlays, laced black grip.

paduak
 (http://www.howardhillarchery.com/mambots/content/multithumb/images/bcf91fb5f82e6509a16dea865d26e4c4.jpg)

Hey Gang,

The bug got me, BIG! I couldn't resist ordering a 68" 55# at 28" Dual Shelf Robin Hood Bow.
Note the Serial number of #50 of 50.

(That does not mean Craig has sold out, I just asked if I could have the last one in the series. He said, Yes!)

I have always wanted a Dual Shelf Bow. My friend, Leo Markert, has told me I need to develop the left side as well as the right side.

So, here she is!

 (http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac138/hemdell/A%20Dual%20Shelf%20Robin%20Hood/IMG00427-20110115-1227.jpg)   (http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac138/hemdell/A%20Dual%20Shelf%20Robin%20Hood/IMG00422-20110115-1222.jpg)   (http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac138/hemdell/A%20Dual%20Shelf%20Robin%20Hood/IMG00423-20110115-1223.jpg)   (http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac138/hemdell/A%20Dual%20Shelf%20Robin%20Hood/IMG00424-20110115-1224.jpg)   (http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac138/hemdell/A%20Dual%20Shelf%20Robin%20Hood/IMG00426-20110115-1226.jpg)

gorgeous!  congrats!

Aw! Matt!! You just had to post this one huh?

You dawg!!!!

Not really, congratulations buddy!!

Now tell me how she feels... nothing dirty... just talk to me man!!

I wish you lived a lot closer.

God bless,Mudd

PS: I think we will need some action shots from both sides.

That's a beautiful bow Raging Water!   Have you ever shot "lefty" before?

Nice, I like the dual shelf. The wait is over for me. My itch has been scratched also.  Robin Hood #11, LH 68" 45@28 showed up today.
Dale

Now THAT is one absolutely gorgeous bow! Congrats.  :thumbsup:

Very cool Matt. I like the dual shelf idea. Makes it more marketable if you decide to pass it along!   :bigsmyl:

I bet Ole Robin Hood could shoot lefty and righty. That is what gave me the idea (Plus, Leo's encouragement).

Craig was willing to do it. Thanks, Craig Ekin! Great Fellow!

Plus, since it is #50 of 50 with a Dual Shelf, I thought that would be kind of unique, too.

I hope to get some action shots with my right handed arrows and my left handed arrows. Which end goes on first?

This thread went on forever. How come whenever I make a post the thread dies?

Matt

Aaaah, it ain't dead Matt. Just resting a spell!   :thumbsup:

Matt you said you got the last one!!...lol

Number 50 of 50.

Watch you mail buddy.

God bless, Mudd

i predict - heck, i know! - this thread will be resurrected more than a few times as the bows start arriving into our sweaty little hands ....  :thumbsup:

This is my baby hanging 20 ft in the crisp 20 deg air this evening waiting for a doe they went around me. (http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj10/longbowben/DSC06793.jpg)

Rob your right!,I thought I had it all together as to my likes and dislikes in bows ,now these Hill style bows are calling me with the allure,passions and intrigue like I've never felt,almost a primial feeling,hard to explain!

Steve, "Hill style bows are calling me with the allure,passions and intrigue like I've never felt,almost a primial feeling,hard to explain!"

I have tried to explain it to some folks but never seemed to get it right.

I can tell you it's  just as much of how the bow makes me feel about myself when I have it in my hand and especially when I'm out in the woods as it is how the bow feels in my hand.

It sure doesn't hurt that they're just beautiful to behold.

God bless,Mudd

Well I guess I can add a little more heat to the fire. Here's my lite Sunset Hill.

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/QuietPlaces012.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/QuietPlaces006.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/QuietPlaces002.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/QuietPlaces004.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/QuietPlaces007.jpg)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/QuietPlaces1.jpg)

Can you say caramalized Bamboo!!! What a sweet shooter it is too!

Spanky

Spanky,that sure is sweet!!!

Spanky,don't ever bring that bow to Canada,you won't leave with it !LOL Simply beautiful.

Hey Ken ..
that is a dandy ! what are the specs ? how do you mean lite ? ###  ?

Ben this one is 67" and 47@27. I usually shoot around 55-58lbs so it's a little lighter than I'm used too, but man it draws smooth as silk!

Hey Steve, that would be a heck of a fight Bud!   :biglaugh:  

My new Natural should be here in a few more weeks so I'll have even more fuel to add to this fire...it's gonna be a beauty!!!

Thanks for the compliments guy's...glad you enjoyed the pics!

Spanky

Spanky- what riser wood is on that bow?

Darren

Darren that is stained Myrtle.

Here some strung profiles of the new Tembo.

(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/TradNut/101_0290.jpg)
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/TradNut/101_0291.jpg)
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/TradNut/101_0292.jpg)

Looks good TW!  :thumbsup:   I think for all around shootability, the Tembo is my favorite model from Craig.

Spanky

I kept hearing the same thing. Everyone that I've read that has owned one, has had nothing but good to say about this model. That's what prompted me to make it my next bow. It pulls very smoothly!

TW-

I really like the gray glass, That's only the second Hill that I've seen with gray glass. Have you compared the Tembo to a Big Five? I was wondering if there was any differences. Does anyone know how many lams Dave Miller or Nate uses?
I might make my next Hill a stringfollow Tembo with a Myrtle riser.

Darren

The first Hill bow I ever had was a Big5. It shot great and like an idiot, I let it go. Haven't shot the Tembo yet so, cannot compare. Been non stop rain for two days now. Maybe tomorrow.   :rolleyes:

Nate uses three lams of Bamboo, and so does David in the "Old Tom". Now if you want a heavyweight that might change!

Spanky

QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
Matt you said you got the last one!!...lol

Number 50 of 50.

God bless, Mudd

Roy,

Just to make it perfectly clear, there are still more Robin Hood bows that Craig can make. I just asked for the number 50 of 50.

So, if anyone has a "Lucky" number, and it hasn't been taken, Craig will get it for you.

I wonder? How many, of the 50, Craig has orders for? Anybody know?

Matt

Hey Fellas all these bows your so graciously showing is so well appreciated,I never realized there were so many options.Life sure is a learning pcocess.
Spanky,I'm to old to fight any more,heck I even try to stay out of heated arguments! LOL.Thru heavy manipulation,bartering and some sutle begging I might win!I know one thing if you ever made it to Canada we'd sure have some fun shootin!

TEMBO!!! - definitely a bow in my future ...

68", r/h, 50#@28" but tillered and drawn to 29", sleeve t/d, string follow, caramelized boo, coco riser, coco tip overlays, shelf wood cut to 1/16", locator handle, black laced grip.  

did my 2010 tax return get here yet?  :D

Hang-on, Rob, I thought you were dubious about string-follow longbows?

My new Redman will be string-follow; I'm looking forward to finding-out what it's like first-hand.

back in the 50's and 60's i had a gaggle of self and composite wood longbows, all with string follow.  they were good shooters out to around 15-20 yards and then they ran outta gas.  the feel in the draw and release was/is quite different than a backset or dead straight longbow, just a treat.  but performance-wise they were dogs, which ushered in my glass/wood era for longbows and recurves.  

i've only messed with a few string follow longbows since those dayze, last was a bamboo backed osage.  close, but still no cigar.  i've heard much differently about the craig's hills, and that the induced string follow ("belly set") is just enuf to make the draw and release sweet, but without sacrificing that much of the performance.  if that be true, bring 'em on!  the big 5 i just ordered has that belly set, i'll see ...

My shooting usually runs out of gas past fifteen or twenty yards!

Yep, it'll be fun to see what they're about, eh.

I'm in the same boat as you Steve so I guess we would have to thumb wrestle for it....BUT IT WOULD STILL BE A HECK OF A FIGHT MAN....come on, work with me here Bud!    :biglaugh:      :biglaugh:      :biglaugh:  

I'd love to come to Canada someday and hunt some of the great species of game you guys have, and yes we would have great fun shooting our Hill bows....maybe someday!

The modern string follow Hill is the only way to fly IMHO! Can't speak for Craig's, but Nate's are the bomb!!!

Spanky

Hey Spanks sounds real good,I invited a couple of young fellas from Arkansas to hunt Elk with me last year .It blew there mind,Canada is one big Purty country.real curious about these string follows as thats what I learned on in 1960.I just love the simplicity and subtlness of these bows yet still capable of delivering a devastating blow,Kinda reminds me of my wife!

Hope you "guys" are happy - you've pulled me down with the rest of ya (or up!).

Got a Northern Mist Shelton coming,tempered bamboo(like peanut butter),green glass on belly 'n back, Maccassar(sp?)ebony riser/grip. 66",54 Lbs.@ 28", TD. Should get it by April 2nd or 3rd.

It'll be my 2nd Shelton! Love my first one-a one piece with clear glass Bocote risor 'n trim with same spec's.

Green glass and Macassar...that will be a looker for sure!!! We will definately require pics when it arrives!

Congrats   :thumbsup:  

Oh yeah, sorry about bringing ya down with us, but that's what we Hillaholics do you know!   :biglaugh:  

WOW guy's check it out, we almost got 300 posts talking about slow, outdated, shocky bows that are too long to hunt with.....amazing!  :laughing:  

Spanky

Yeah, Spanky, the trouble is that those of us who already knew about what a hoot they are will be having to wait longer now to get 'em because of all the guys who have been infected with the desire here.  What have we done???  :confused:

QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
... What have we done???   :confused:  

boosted howard hill archery's profits, for one thing.

i sure wish they'd have become trad gang sponsors ....

I think all you "old" Hill owners need to step aside and call Craig. Tell him that you wish to put all the 1st time buyers to the head of the list. Feel free to use my name!   :bigsmyl:  
I'll tell you all what,I'll just call him for ya and let him know. Thanks guys this is a real nice gesture!   :deadhorse:  
What? Did I say something wrong? I got alot of ugly cyber looks.   :nono:

Congrats 3under, you picked a great bow made by a real expert bowyer.  If you're new to Hill bows you may want to try to put a few in the hand before Steve shapes your grip.  Some fellas prefer to have the grip a tad rounded where the palm rests against the bow instead of the standard "sharper" feel.
If you can't find some to handle I can always mail you two of my bows so you can see the difference.  Let me know.

NOTE:
Ya'll are gonna let the cat out of the bag bigtime here....next thing you know  the wait time for a "string follow"(deflexed) Hill style bow will be a year or two or more......but I have an idea.    ;)    
We'll get all those bowyers to flip those undesireable "backset" forms upside down so they can be prepared for the next traditional supply and demand crisis.    :bigsmyl:    

Rick

Craig is gluing up my Big 5 this week. Got my Wesley about a month ago and had to have another one. Sold 2 of my older Widows . Rob I think my Big 5 turned out to be like yours; string follow, Padauk riser, caramelized boo , 68" and 61-63# @28". didn't mean to copy it just turned out that way.
It is a lefty though .  I think number three will be a Redman

Number 3!!  :D  Gets a grip on you doesn't it???

Chupa,
This will be my 2nd Shelton. My first one was the result of the 1st Trad/Prim Expo in Wheeling WV. I went to Denton Hill this past July and shot a bunch of Steve's bows. So I guess Steve Turay is also partially guity too along with David M (as in Michell).
I didn't expect preachers would be guilty of conributing to temptation of his brethern!

I just can't put that Wesley down! I shoot everyday since I got it. outside ,inside at night. Real interested in the string follow and how it will shoot. Craig does a fine job and I am impressed with his work. My plan is to trim down my dozen or so stickbows to 3 Hills and 3 Widows. That should be enough.

QuoteOriginally posted by 3Under:
So I guess Steve Turay is also partially guity too along with David M.
I didn't expect preachers would be guilty of conributing to temptation of his brethern!

That's funny...   :biglaugh:

I've been following this thread for a while now with great interest. Most of the talk as been Howard Hill, Nate Steen, and David Miller but like 3Under, I have a NM Shelton on the way with the same 66" 54#@28" specs. I had shot one at Baltimore back in the spring and loved it. Man that bow was fun to shoot.

Mine has been on order for a while now. I spoke to Steve just a couple of days ago and I expect to see it here pretty soon. Right now he's gearing up for Kalamazoo. Kingwood riser, black glass on the back, bamboo core, clear glass with English yew on the belly, antler tips, straight grip with beaver tail leather (I supplied the leather).

Working on some new sitka spruce woodies right now in anticipation of going back "old school" a bit.

One of my plans is to use my reflexed form to build a forward riser pattern... voila!  Instant string follow!   I'm suddenly way behind so who knows when I'll get to that.  Maybe in the spring for my birthday.   Heck of a note when your delivery time for your own bows is longer than for the ones you order!

I took Bamboozle, my newest (extreme string follow and shoot off the hand) to a 3D Saturday.   Both of us had a great time.  I'm really pleased with this one.

I guess you might say "Another one bites the dust". Just ordered my 1st Hill bow. No use revealing the rest cause I dont have pics to back it up. So you all will have to wait for a minute.
BTW- Anybody got a couch I can sleep on.  :deadhorse:

I Just joined trad gang,and ordering my first HH bow tmmrrw. Looking forward to being part of the gang.

Looks like you better get the cabin fire going.And Rob our friend just bought your old Wesley Special bow that you sold in December.He also joined tradgang last night. His name is Dirty Bob .

:campfire:  


  God bless,Mudd       :archer:

Hi Dirty Bob   :wavey:  
In all your excitement ya forgot to tell us all the bow spec's you're ordering from Craig.

Yes, do tell the little secret!   :D

Congratulations and welcome to the Howard Hill fan club!   :wavey:    :campfire:    :archer:

Man, good thing I don't want to order a new Hill...I'd have to wait lots longer than I'm used to for it with all this ordering going on--not that there's anything wrong with that!

I think with as much money as members of this site have thrown his way lately, Craig should become a Sponsor here! 'Course they've been in business long enough to not need to but, it sure would be nice.   :D

:archer:

Have any of you guys seen carmalized bamboo when it did not work? It looks like irregular shaped bleached out spots on the limb. You may want to discuss with the bowyer what is going to happen if one limb comes out carmelized and the other looks bleached. Voice of experience talking.

I called Howard Hill Archery about an hour ago to order some accessories...   There's approximately 28 of the Robin Hood Special Editions spoken for!   The fellow on the phone said they were very busy...

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
back in the 50's and 60's i had a gaggle of self and composite wood longbows, all with string follow.  they were good shooters out to around 15-20 yards and then they ran outta gas.  the feel in the draw and release was/is quite different than a backset or dead straight longbow, just a treat.  but performance-wise they were dogs

Rob, I edited some of your quote trying to pin down the key point about String Follow.

I was only able to shoot 6 arrows out of my new 68" 55# at 28 HH Robin Hood. I was impressed by the cast and speed at 15 yards. The weather here has dried up so I will go out Tuesday and see the cast from 20 yards.

Then, I will try it against an R/D bow. I will see about the cast and speed difference at 25 yards.  (no chrono, just getting a feel)

My first impression of my HH Robin Hood with String Follow was impressive. You and I agree that speed is not the ticket but, I have to admit, at first blush, my 55# Robin Hood was pretty fast.

More later.....

matt, i'm hopeful that both of our wood/glass composite string follow hills will not only have that good feel on draw and release, but also won't lose much cast at hunting distances.  

there could be, should be, some serious difference 'tween the all wood longbow string follow dogs of my youth and these fancy schmancy, high tech, space age, modern composite hill string follow longbows produced here in the 21st century.  :D

hope to hear about your testing today!

Matt,I'm very curious about your testing.I learned to shoot with an old string follow longbow and still remember how pleasant it was.Your findings will probably be my decision.I would love to have a bow that was reminisant of the past,and like Rob said with some of todays performances.
Iam really leaning towards a HH Cheetah with Yew instead of Bamboo as cores ,66",around 56#,cocobola riser, clear glass and slight string follow,and seriouly thinking of a double shelf like Matts Robin Hood.I've got a bad fealing Craigs wait time has drastically increased !LOL Ah well.

GregD, no worries there about the carmelizing of bamboo.  It is done before the bow is glued up with the raw 'boo and the bowyer will be careful to match the limbs to each other.  The fact is that bamboo is not going to have uniform color throughout the entire limb due to the nature of the grain in what is actually a grass rather than wood.  I have a Dave Wallace longbow that has stained bamboo which is gorgeous but the stain takes a bit differently in different places on the limb.  That is part of what makes the limb so pretty--it's not all one color but like many of the exotic woods used in bows there is variation......Dave

Hey Leatherneck...I just noticed your reply that you ordered a Hill.  Congrats.  If ya did find a couch and are now rested up can you tell us the spec's?

QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
GregD, no worries there about the carmelizing of bamboo.  It is done before the bow is glued up with the raw 'boo and the bowyer will be careful to match the limbs to each other.  The fact is that bamboo is not going to have uniform color throughout the entire limb due to the nature of the grain in what is actually a grass rather than wood.  I have a Dave Wallace longbow that has stained bamboo which is gorgeous but the stain takes a bit differently in different places on the limb.  That is part of what makes the limb so pretty--it's not all one color but like many of the exotic woods used in bows there is variation......Dave

i LOVE the looks of my mohawk's stained cane limbs, where the ground nodes are darkened and show nicely against the 'straw' colored 'boo ...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/mag7.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/mag6.jpg)

Rob,

I love the "Dirty" Bamboo look myself. I had a Great Plains with real dirty boo limbs. It was cool looking.

Matt

It's gratifying to see so many people who understand that longbows should be LONG. I've had several HH bows over the years, including a 70lb one that Howard made for my dad.
I am romancin' one of Greg Coffee's "American" LBs.
Man, that design is sweeet and 68"  :bigsmyl:

John lets see that hill that Howard built.  :D

QuoteOriginally posted by longbowben:
John lets see that hill that Howard built.   :D  

Yes Yes please   x2     :thumbsup:

David and Rob, I also would have assumed the bowyer would be careful to match the limbs and not use material that didn't take the carmelization. I am also not talking about variation in the color or visible nodes, I'm talking about irregular shaped areas that are a stark white as if the area had been bleached. The explanation I recieved was it's a natural material and anything can happen. I'm only bringing it up to you guys because if I had any idea that could happen I would have asked about it before the bow was built. Good Luck, Greg

most all bamboo can be "caramelized" - a fancy word for "heat tempering", which i've read is what howard did because it heats up the internal boo/cane resins and changes the molecular structure of the bamboo, making it stiffer, stronger, more durable and more resistant to breaking and taking a set.  

i've heat tempered green bamboo with a propane torch.  this is a fast way to "cure" it and make it lots stronger.  as the resin bubbles up and smokes, the outer boo skin changes color from light green to light tan. longer it's heated, the darker the coloring gets - amber, amber/orange, malt, dark chocolate.  i love the smell of hot bamboo in the morning.    :jumper:

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/DSC01079.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/DSC01078.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/DSC01077.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/DSC01076.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/DSC01075.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/mudd57/DSC01074.jpg)

mudd's in da hood!  :thumbsup:

Nice shooting Mudd!   Was it worth all of those sleepless nights?... YES!   :archer:    Sherwood Forest is now in Missouri boys!

Cookus, where's the pics of that Black Bear?

Mudd ... glad its arrived mate . Looks sweet !
Are you gonna cough up a review for us ?

I sent that package today to you .

After I bought my Hill with the carmelized limbs, I spoke to Jason at Howard Hill Archery about their supply of carm. bamboo and he told me that the carmelized bamboo is done before he receives it.

Darren

The Black Bear arrived in WV last week TW and I shot it all weekend!   It's headed for Craig's shop in the morning to get 2 inlays (Black bears of course!) and a black laced wrap.   The bow was in pristine condition but I wanted to "spruce her up a bit" before her debut here on Trad Gang!   I think the riser is a nice, orangish cocobolo, but Craig's going to identify it for me.   The contrasting black limbs and orange riser are beautiful!

Mudd, if you don't mind me asking, what are the woods of the bow on the left in the first pic? The limbs look like yew. But what about the riser?

Oops! Just saw the hat inlay. Must be the Robin Hood.

Cookus, she sounds like she's gonna be right down PURDY! Can't wait to see the outcome.   :thumbsup:

Bocote or is it bacote,

I'm not sure of the spelling.

The truth is I think it's beautiful no matter how you spell it..lol

God bless,Mudd

Thanks. And you're right about it being beautiful. Congrats on the bow.  :thumbsup:

Mudd,

Nice to see your Robin Hood bow. Pretty awesome.

I got the hat so I will post some action pictures later this weekend.

Matt

Mudd are you gonna make a hat for everyone that gets a Robin Hood bow? lol, Gotta admit that'd be kind of cool!  :biglaugh:

Very nice Mudd.  :archer2:

Hey ben, Maybe you can shame me into the woods with my new bow next year!

Im not that dumb again.  :knothead:

I love my Wesley Special 66", 50@26.  Quiet as a mouse

who's still waiting on a delivery from craig, david, nate, etc?

i be waitin' on ...

big 5 from craig
ol' tom from david

I just go off the phone w/Jason about an hour ago. He said they are real busy. I let him know it was thanks to these posts!   :thumbsup:

Rob,I confess a new "Red Cheetah" from Craig.

A Hill Big Five and Miller Split Bamboo are in the mail as I type this. Both are recent purchases(used) for me and should arrive by weeks end, or sooner.

As far as Sunset Hill's I've owned one since 2005-one of the very first bows Nate made for others. Nate has had it for a couple years now because he was not very happy with the way it turned out-too much string follow after several months of shoting because it had no belly glass, just bamboo. So he is making me a new one that should arrive sometime in the future.

Furthermore, it is going to be something "NEW" from Sunset Hill!  :)

Rob, a Redman from Craig...

This thread is a feeding frenzy for us Hill sharks!

been thinking about a redman too, ben.  mmmm, nice!

be interesting to see how much customer traffic is going to howard hill archery via way of this forum and thread ...   ;)

Well, if I had to hazard a guess from my conversation with Jason, I'd say a lot. But, that's just my thoughts.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wannabe1:
Well, if I had to hazard a guess from my conversation with Jason, I'd say a lot. But, that's just my thoughts.

that's what i'm thinking, too .....

Waiting on a Big 5

Mmm

I am waiting on
My Robin Hood # 13
My T/d Rhino
My Belcher T/d Union Jack [ all yew
My Belcher 1 Union Jack Maple

all these are string Follow
66" 52# /-54 # @ 27 "

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
who's still waiting on a delivery from craig, david, nate, etc?

i be waitin' on ...

big 5 from craig
ol' tom from david

Rob, Which Nate?

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
matt, i'm hopeful that both of our wood/glass composite string follow hills will not only have that good feel on draw and release, but also won't lose much cast at hunting distances.  

there could be, should be, some serious difference 'tween the all wood longbow string follow dogs of my youth and these fancy schmancy, high tech, space age, modern composite hill string follow longbows produced here in the 21st century.   :D  

hope to hear about your testing today!

Rob, I shot my new HH Robin Hood String Follow today from 17 yards and 22 yards.

As you mentioned, past 20 yards the arrows started to run out of gas. However, I was just tickled with the 17 yard performance.

Boy, that Robin Hood feels really good!

Also, I shot 16 arrows lefty today. Very pleased with the way it turned out. See my Dual Shelf Robin Hood Post Page 3 for Pictures.

Matt

QuoteOriginally posted by Raging Water:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
who's still waiting on a delivery from craig, david, nate, etc?

i be waitin' on ...

big 5 from craig
ol' tom from david

Rob, Which Nate? [/b]

nate steen (sunset hill) - what other nate?

QuoteOriginally posted by Raging Water:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
matt, i'm hopeful that both of our wood/glass composite string follow hills will not only have that good feel on draw and release, but also won't lose much cast at hunting distances.  

there could be, should be, some serious difference 'tween the all wood longbow string follow dogs of my youth and these fancy schmancy, high tech, space age, modern composite hill string follow longbows produced here in the 21st century.    :D  

hope to hear about your testing today!

Rob, I shot my new HH Robin Hood String Follow today from 17 yards and 22 yards.

As you mentioned, past 20 yards the arrows started to run out of gas. However, I was just tickled with the 17 yard performance.

Boy, that Robin Hood feels really good!

Also, I shot 16 arrows lefty today. Very pleased with the way it turned out. See my Dual Shelf Robin Hood Post Page 3 for Pictures.

Matt [/b]

good 'nuff!

what arrow weights?

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:


be interesting to see how much customer traffic is going to howard hill archery via way of this forum and thread ...    ;)  

Well,along with checking out longbowbens bow and this thread I have a new Wesley Special on the way.

Awww? Man, I knew you were going to ask that!

Don't ask me about FOC. But the wood arrows were 532 gr. The bow is 55# at 28" so 9.67 GPP.

I did shoot some lighter carbon arrows (I guess 430 - 450 Gr) They flew real well at 22 yards.

Matt

I sent my Black Bear in this morning (add a laced wrap and inlays / modify dished grip to a locator)and Craig confirmed via email the turn-around time for my bow was 4-5 weeks.   The boys are REALLY busy but as TW stated they're taking the time to talk with all of us...   I appreciate that and their cordial customer service   :thumbsup: .   I will shoot the Wesley in the meantime!   Life is GREAT!

I'm waiting on:

1. Sunset Hill Natural (no belly glass) 65" 58@26.5 which should be here shortly.

2. Two other Sunset Hills on order for later in the year.

Spanky, I got a birthday coming up and you got wwaaayyy to many Hills...RC

That's not possible RC...you can never have too many Hills!!

Spanky

Now, now Kelly....no tempting! no leaking.....lol

Spanky,  why don't you tell the guys how 'slow' and out of gas your Sunset is?  This cracks me up......( it is my humble opinion that a well designed String follow bow shouldn't run out of gas...there are other factors to be considered when designing a string follow bow. If the bow is 2 - 3 feet per second slower than a conventional longbow, it wouldn't run out of gas until you shoot somewhere arond 50 yards...)

QuoteIf the bow is 2 - 3 feet per second slower than a conventional longbow, it wouldn't run out of gas until you shoot somewhere arond 50 yards...)  

:thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Now, now Kelly....no tempting! no leaking.....lol

Spanky,  why don't you tell the guys how 'slow' and out of gas your Sunset is?  This cracks me up......( it is my humble opinion that a well designed String follow bow shouldn't run out of gas...there are other factors to be considered when designing a string follow bow. If the bow is 2 - 3 feet per second slower than a conventional longbow, it wouldn't run out of gas until you shoot somewhere arond 50 yards...)

are there any issues with holding weight (and/or perhaps draw length) for string follow longbows?  

is there a threshold of sorts with a string follow longbow where to get decent performance/efficiency you need at least some specified holding weight?

iow, with a pair of string follow longbows that are as identical as possible but of different holding weights @ 28", say 45# and 60#, each using 28" 10gpp arrows, find that the heavier bow has a more than compared higher percentage of efficient performance (call that cast, arrow speed, lowered trajectory, etc) than the lighter bow?    

i know the heavier bow will perform better, but will that performance be proportionally better because string follow longbows "work better" at higher holding weights?

i ask this question to better understand if string follow longbows are worth having for lighter holding weight longbows.

QuoteOriginally posted by SpankyNeal:
That's not possible RC...you can never have too many Hills!!

Spanky

I gotta say.. he's gotcha there RC...lol

God bless,Mudd

It's funny, Nate and I were discussing this just the other day on the phone. Guys, after shooting "White Dragon" now for a few months I have proven to myself that what Nate says is right on! I've also had this same conversation with Steve Turay a couple of years ago, and he said basically the same thing. I have no experience with Craig's version of string follow, but after owning several straight and reflexed Hills, Kramers, Mists, Shultz's, and string follow Shultz's, Miller's, and Mists I can tell you that a good string follow design will be right there with, if not faster, than the other profiles...the Dragon is faster for it's weight than all of them! It's 58@26.5" which is my short stubby draw and with a 600gr arrow there is NO drop out to a measured 25yrds which I shoot at my local indoor 3D range. After shooting all of these different bows for some time now, I can see no disadvantages at all to a properly designed string follow bow. Add in the advantages of low shock, increased stability, and quiet release and you have the best Hill design ever IMHO!

Rob, I think that bow length in proper proportion to draw length is maybe more critical with string follow than it is with the other profiles. You can get away with a 68" reflex profile for a 26" draw, but the string follow may suffer a little for that draw at that length. The string follow however will feel just as smooth at the shorter length as the longer bow does!

Spanky    :archer:

Rob,
i began using my string follows specifically for FITA and IFAA field rounds ... i felt that they performed a bit better and 'easier' when taking those 70 yarders etc on a four arrow end .

So yeah ... I'm sold on them , especially at the lighter weights .

Rob,

I don't own a chrono,  never saw the need.  However, many customers of mine have stated over the years that they are really surprised how fast my bows are, from 45 - 80 pounds.  They are ordering bows that are comparable with the weights they were currently shooting and are comparing arrow speeds with bows that are reflexed or straight.  Most customers are shooting arrows at least as stiff or in many, many cases they are shooting arrows stiffer than they are used to in their other 'hill style' bows.  I think that if the bow is tillered and timed properly, it will shoot well regardless of the weight.

To clarify my previous statement (not to put anyone down, especially other bowyers of whom I send many customers)  I believe that Hill's bowmaking principles have been lost on many people.  Hill also was constantly tinkering with his bows to make them better while still keeping their original form and function.  A good string follow bow shouldn't follow the lead of a backset bow...they are different bows and should have different design attributes, while still conforming to Hill's original principles. This means that a good string follow bow can shoot very comparable with a straight or slightly backset bow for speed, but be much better in terms of shootability. These are my thoughts on the subject based on years of research and bowmaking and aren't in any way meant to demean anyone's bows or bowmaking abilities.  I for one am over the top excited to see such an interest in Straight End longbows, and the renaissance of their popularity.  I have limited bowmaking time available and therefore send many potential customers to Miller, Ekin, and Turay who in the past few years have enjoyed the resurgence in string follow design, carmelized bamboo, and visible-fadeout risers.

spanky sez ...

QuoteRob, I think that bow length in proper proportion to draw length is maybe more critical with string follow than it is with the other profiles. You can get away with a 68" reflex profile for a 26" draw, but the string follow may suffer a little for that draw at that length.

i don't understand - a 68" hill style and 26" draw is a mistake no matter what the limb set, or lack thereof.

if the bow length is apropos to the draw length for a 45# string follow and a 60# string follow - let's say a 68" bow and 28" or 29" draw length - which bow will be the better performer with a 10gpp arrow.  do you see where i'm going with this?

The reason I said that is because alot of guys like the bow longer than Hills formula, i.e 70" bow and 28" draw, and that's a mistake with string follow bows! I do have a 47@27 Sunset Hill as well and it seems just as fast at the same gpp as the heavier one. I don't use a chrono but I can pick either one up and hit spot on with it at range with no adjustments so they must be real close!

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,

I don't own a chrono,  never saw the need.  However, many customers of mine have stated over the years that they are really surprised how fast my bows are, from 45 - 80 pounds.  They are ordering bows that are comparable with the weights they were currently shooting and are comparing arrow speeds with bows that are reflexed or straight.  Most customers are shooting arrows at least as stiff or in many, many cases they are shooting arrows stiffer than they are used to in their other 'hill style' bows.  I think that if the bow is tillered and timed properly, it will shoot well regardless of the weight.

To clarify my previous statement (not to put anyone down, especially other bowyers of whom I send many customers)  I believe that Hill's bowmaking principles have been lost on many people.  Hill also was constantly tinkering with his bows to make them better while still keeping their original form and function.  A good string follow bow shouldn't follow the lead of a backset bow...they are different bows and should have different design attributes, while still conforming to Hill's original principles. This means that a good string follow bow can shoot very comparable with a straight or slightly backset bow for speed, but be much better in terms of shootability. These are my thoughts on the subject based on years of research and bowmaking and aren't in any way meant to demean anyone's bows or bowmaking abilities.  I for one am over the top excited to see such an interest in Straight End longbows, and the renaissance of their popularity.  I have limited bowmaking time available and therefore send many potential customers to Miller, Ekin, and Turay who in the past few years have enjoyed the resurgence in string follow design, carmelized bamboo, and visible-fadeout risers.

i hear ya, thanx.

now to my question previously posed .. lemme cut to the chase, is it worth getting a string follow longbow of 45#, or will that light holding weight proportionally be that noticeable less efficient than the same bow at 60#?

I think we were posting at the same time Rob LOL!

QuoteOriginally posted by SpankyNeal:
The reason I said that is because alot of guys like the bow longer than Hills formula and that's a mistake with string follow bows! I do have a 47@27 Sunset Hill as well and it seems just as fast at the same gpp as the heavier one. I don't use a chrono but I can pick either one up and hit spot on with it at range with no adjustments so they must be real close!

what is howard hill's bow length formula?  i read him saying the arrow length (draw length, i'll assume) corresponds to the bow length.  the formula being a 6' longbow for a 28" arrow, and each 1/2" more or less in arrow length is multiplied x 2 and added or subtracted from that 72" bow.  does that pan out with a modern wood/glass hill, sunset, miller, schulz, etc?

Excuse the ignorance here but its how we learn. What is a visible =fadeout riser? you can see the fadeout in any riser if you look close enough. Its a term I am un-familar with  Thanks and God bless you, Steve

Take the last digit of your draw length and add it to 60"...if 30" draw or over add to 70". So a 29" draw would be a 69" bow.

A visible fadeout riser is where the riser is not covered by the belly lams but is exposed under the clear glass if that makes sense. You can see it on the Robin Hood bow pics and on my light Sunset Hill pics.

Rob,

because of the different shooting characteristics of the different Hill style bowmakers' longbows, you would have to compare bows within the bowmaker's offerings.  In my bows, if you shoot a 480 gr arrow out of a 48# bow, you will get similar arrow speed and feel as a 600 gr arrow out of a 60#r.  Obviously, you will get better penetration with the heavier arrow.  Craig Ambros aka Fishone just got a 47#r from me, maybe his imput can help.

QuoteOriginally posted by SpankyNeal:
Take the last digit of your draw length and add it to 60"...if 30" draw or over add to 70". So a 29" draw would be a 69" bow.

where did that formula originate?

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,

because of the different shooting characteristics of the different Hill style bowmakers' longbows, you would have to compare bows within the bowmaker's offerings.  In my bows, if you shoot a 480 gr arrow out of a 48# bow, you will get similar arrow speed and feel as a 600 gr arrow out of a 60#r.  Obviously, you will get better penetration with the heavier arrow.  Craig Ambros aka Fishone just got a 47#r from me, maybe his imput can help.

now that's what i needed to hear.  thanx.

Spanky and Rob...

subtract one digit from the bow length in comparison to the draw length...ie.  28" draw..67" bow    27"draw = 66" bow.  However, as my customers know, there are many other factors included in determining bowlength...hand size among them....

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,

because of the different shooting characteristics of the different Hill style bowmakers' longbows, you would have to compare bows within the bowmaker's offerings.  In my bows, if you shoot a 480 gr arrow out of a 48# bow, you will get similar arrow speed and feel as a 600 gr arrow out of a 60#r.  Obviously, you will get better penetration with the heavier arrow.  Craig Ambros aka Fishone just got a 47#r from me, maybe his imput can help.

69" sunset hill for a 29" draw length?

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Spanky and Rob...

subtract one digit from the bow length in comparison to the draw length...ie.  28" draw..67" bow    27"draw = 66" bow.  However, as my customers know, there are many other factors included in determining bowlength...hand size among them....

oh.  so for a 29" draw it's a 68" longbow?

Nate is that for string follow only? I have heard the other formula for a long time from many Hill sources.

Rob,  one of the many confusions concerning Hill's preferences for bowlength is centered on his size comparisons.  He had very large hands, which contorts dimensions in photos and personal accounts, which is one factor in bowsizing.  Hill also determined his drawlength differently than what we do today.  His bow was customized to him, for what worked for him.  If we take the dimensions of bows he preferred and re-size them to fit an average size man, a comparable bow will be much different.  However, the "standard 68"r" has been a standard for so many years that guys don't even know where it came from let alone if that size is correct for them...

Sixby, here is a picture of one of Nate's bows with the visible fade out....
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy241/davidmitchell_6466/Sunset%20Hill%20bows/SunsetHill_brochurepics008.jpg)

Looks like David's got something on his mind....another bow perhaps? Hummmmh!   :biglaugh:

Spanky,

the formula did change somewhat over the years due to the advances in bow construction...also Schulz refined that formula in the late 80's with his string follow bows...

Rob,  one of the most critical, if not the most, elements of a proper Hill style bow is limb tiller/bend at full draw.  Compare Hill's limb bend on his personal laminated bows with Schulz's personal bows and they are identical.  This was very important to Schulz in bowmaking.  I try for this same bend in my bows and Schulz has confirmed this to me.  You are an interesting case....you very well might need a shorter bow than you have always thought in order to get that proper limb bend.  But, as I've said, there are many factors in deciding how to build the bow to fit you...not just bowlength, not just grip profile, etc.

I've been reading along and find this to be most educating. Thank you guys for sharing this info.   :thumbsup:

David,  since I built that bow many years ago, I've developed the technique to have a radius ended fadout under a flat lam of glass.  In my mind it is much better looking.

All this talking....you guys are keeping me out of the bowshop!  lol.lol.

Wow this got deep today.My heads spinning.

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
All this talking....you guys are keeping me out of the bowshop!  lol.lol.

Uh oh, that's not good news for me!    :biglaugh:

Ok someone post a string follow bow so some new  people can see what you are talking about.I didnt understand untill i saw the pictures myself .Thanks

The limbs bend slightly towards the belly (shooters) side of the bow when unbraced.

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/kbneal2002/QuietPlaces007.jpg)

Thanks SpankyNeal.This is a very good topic i just might have to give one a try.Just dont tell my wife what im thinking.

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
... Rob,  one of the most critical, if not the most, elements of a proper Hill style bow is limb tiller/bend at full draw.  Compare Hill's limb bend on his personal laminated bows with Schulz's personal bows and they are identical.  This was very important to Schulz in bowmaking.  I try for this same bend in my bows and Schulz has confirmed this to me.  You are an interesting case....you very well might need a shorter bow than you have always thought in order to get that proper limb bend.  But, as I've said, there are many factors in deciding how to build the bow to fit you...not just bowlength, not just grip profile, etc.

interesting.  your comments are new to me and go against typical hill style dogmatic thinking and trends.  

i don't have a clue to understanding how hand size fits into the bow length equation.

so, make me a believer - build me a sunset hill.  pm or email me and let's get me into your bow building lineup so i can expect to get it somewhere in 2012, before the world falls apart.     :help:

you have a pm .......

Here is a shot of a Hill string follow (on the right) and a Northern Mist (on the left).  Steve puts a bit more string follow on his bow than Craig does.

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy241/davidmitchell_6466/Hill%20string%20follow/BigFivestringfollow005.jpg)

Really enjoying this topic. Great information. Thanks to all involved.

I love the eye candy David!! Those are wonderful to behold but I'm betting that they are even more awesome to "be-holding"...lol

Thanks to everyone for the pictures!! Please don't be bashful folks, keep them coming it's out-of-season here and the ground has 8 inches of fresh snow on it this morning so I'm not going anywhere in my little two wheel drive Ranger.

God bless,Mudd

PS: Since my wife is staying with our daughter and granddaughter I think I'll start looking around in here to see if there's enough space for a short indoor range...lol

QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
... PS: Since my wife is staying with our daughter and granddaughter I think I'll start looking around in here to see if there's enough space for a short indoor range...lol

there's always room to shoot indoors, even in a tiny room.  i did that for years while working on form at 15 feet ... just use a GOOD backstop!  :D

Rob-

I agree about shooing inside; years ago I was working a job almost everyday and lived in a townhouse with a beautiful view of a lake but no back yard to shoot in. So I would shoot from the livingroom through the hall to the frontdoor, and for a treestand I would shoot from the second floor down the stairway into the dining area. When I sold the place, I had to repair the holes in the steel front door. It was fun and I could shoot everyday.

Darren

:goldtooth:  Thanks goodness for bowyers.

Pretty interesting reading though.

mike, i gotta thoroughly agree with ya.  all this stuff is interesting to me, but we all know that ANY stick 'n' string will kill kritters if we allow them to do so.  we all gotta keep that foremost in mind.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
mike, i gotta thoroughly agree with ya.  all this stuff is interesting to me, but we all know that ANY stick 'n' string will kill kritters if we allow them to do so.  we all gotta keep that foremost in mind.

:thumbsup:

I hope I say this right! My understanding is that hand size determines the depth of the grip. The deeper the grip the farther away the limb apex is from your anchor, so the farther the limbs must bend. If you measure draw length to the far side of the shelf, a deeper grip gives you a longer draw requiring the bow length and tiller to be adjusted to maintain the proper arc of the limbs. The position of your wrist never changes, but the draw length measurement will based upon the depth of the grip.

Now that i've totally confused all of you i'm gonna take a nap!     :biglaugh:    

Spanky

Spanky,before you take your nap could you answer a question for me. Am I to understand that a person with a small hand would then use a shorter bow length than someone with a larger hand?  You may have stated it somewhere previously, but what is the length of your "White Dragon" bow?  

This has been an extremely interesting thread. Just when I thought I knew everything there was to know about Hill bows along comes a thread like this!

My hands are small and my draw length is about the same as yours - 26 3/4, so I like the 66" length for my Hills, but then I've never tried a shorter length.

Like Nate said there is more to it than that, but in general my impression has been yes. "White Dragon" is 66" long and that is what Nate recommended for my draw and hand size which I guess is about average. It's riser depth is right at 2" and it fits perfectly! I've had a Hill Redman and a NM Classic that both had much smaller risers and they both felt and performed like a longer bow even though they were also 66" in length (slower and felt like the limbs were not loading up enough...just like a 68" bow feels to me). I know that is not a definitive test but it makes sense to me. Steve Turay told me that with his reverse handle bow the Whisper, you could nock off two inches of bow length and have it still feel and perform the same as the longer bow because the reverse handle moves the limbs at the handle 2" closer to the anchor point. Bow length coupled with proper tiller for your draw are critical in a Hill bow....too long and you lose performance, too short and stability and smoothness suffer. So when you pick a Hill bow it's imperative to talk to the bowyer and provide him with an EXACT draw length measurement and tracing of your hand so the bow can be properly built and tillered for you! There is so much difference in a Hill that has been truly custom made for you and one that was not that it's like the difference in night and day!

Spanky

I have been thinking about getting a 70" Hill blank and taking a run to see if I could get it to function at my 26.5" draw.  I would maybe need to reverse trap a very whip ended bow, tempting.

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
I have been thinking about getting a 70" Hill blank and taking a run to see if I could get it to function at my 26.5" draw.  I would maybe need to reverse trap a very whip ended bow, tempting.

i would think 70" is overkill for a draw length under 27"?  66" sounds mo' bettah to me ... ?

QuoteOriginally posted by Wannabe1:
I've been reading along and find this to be most educating. Thank you guys for sharing this info.    :thumbsup:  

I have been doing the same today on this!

Very...Very interesting indeed!

Josh

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
I have been thinking about getting a 70" Hill blank and taking a run to see if I could get it to function at my 26.5" draw.  I would maybe need to reverse trap a very whip ended bow, tempting.

i would think 70" is overkill for a draw length under 27"?  66" sounds mo' bettah to me ... ? [/b]

Is there any ROT on how to match a certain draw length to bow length.  I have read this lately in various posts....I have a 29" draw...does that mean I cannot enjoy a 66" hill bow?

Alot depends on which bowyers Hill bow you are shooting as they are very different! I would try one first to see how it feels, but I think you would be happier overall with a 67-68". We're all different as well so it might work just fine for you.

for a hill longbow, and my 29" draw, anything less than 68" is an issue for me.  ask me why i have a 66" longbow on the classifieds now ....  :)

yeah, i'm curious to see how nate can make less than 68" fit a 29" draw.  i know rik hinton's sunset hill is 66" and his draw length is the same as mine, 29".  i hope nate can educate me in that way, too.

To follow up with Spanky's thread....

grip depth and grip length factor into limb tiller and repeatable hand position/bowhand 'heeling'.  To keep the handle length as short as possible, you need to know the grip length. You need to also to be able to make the working limbs as long as possible while keeping the limb arc correct. Factors like this are what make a truly custom bow...not just what kind of wood and glass color you want.  Most bowyers work off a standard riser length for a particular bow length.  They use standard grip sizes, built for the 'standard' shooter.  However, we all know that all of us are different.  No wonder that guys will shoot brand A well and brand B they can't hit the barn door with. In shooting both bows, it happened to work out that brand A happened to be sized and tillered for their unique characteristics, not that brand B was a bad bow.  The 'standard' 68" longbow with a 16"+- handle has been around so long because it fits most people generically and most bowyers that build for a living must make bows to fit the masses or they go broke. But are we all the same? No.  The sum of all the small things in a bow will add up to make a very custom bow that is built to fit that one person.  To do this you must in a sense throw out the book on standardization.  A bow that is built like the old self bows, tweaking and fitting to the shooter becomes a bow that doesn't get left on the bowrack very much because it's always in use. I try to take the old Hill bowmaking principles and use these to fit the bow to the particular individual's needs.  Why did Hill's longbows work for him? They fit him and his needs.  Schulz was taught personally by Hill yet didn't shoot the same length bows as Hill.  He's about 7" shorter with shorter arms, so his bows were sized to fit him and his needs.  Yet both bowyers built bows based on the same design principles. Photos of them both shooting reveal that each's bows had same limb bend, proportionate handles, etc.  That's customization.  That's what I'm talking about.

What he said!  :biglaugh:

Rob,

a guy with small hands, shooting a tab, needs a smaller handle, and grips a smaller area of bowstring, no matter what length his draw is...a guy like me with big hands, using a double layer leather glove will need a larger handle and grip a larger area of string, again no matter what his draw is.  Rik has small hands, and shoots barefingered....both very important factors in sizing his bow...however he did want a takedown sleeve, so it's non adjusting size had to be taken into account.  But then again Rik doesn't really draw 29" when he shoots...he creeps forward as he settles into the shot and actually shoots about 27".  He uses 29" bop arrows so he doesn't feel the head hit his finger as he overdraws to get back tension....

I'm starting to reveal secrets that only my customers know about...stuff I've learned the hard way....

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
for a hill longbow, and my 29" draw, anything less than 68" is an issue for me.  ask me why i have a 66" longbow on the classifieds now ....   :)  

yeah, i'm curious to see how nate can make less than 68" fit a 29" draw.  i know rik hinton's sunset hill is 66" and his draw length is the same as mine, 29".  i hope nate can educate me in that way, too.

Rob, please clarify "anything less than 68" is an issue for me"

Is it in your accuracy or overall feeling...many here have alluded to this "issue" in one way or another but it is still too vague for me..  I also think understanding the issue will lead me to make a better decision.

We went down to the BIG city last weekend.  I stopped by my "crack house". The shop owner has a policy, you can't shoot a bow without purchase prior.  My policy is just the other side of the coin. Test drive prior to purchase.  I would of most likely bought a HH if I could of shot them 1st.  He had a Badger I really liked the looks of. Have you guys ever had a archery shop with the same policy? Buy before you can shoot it?

hey nate, am i on your list yet?

QuoteOriginally posted by Macatawa:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
for a hill longbow, and my 29" draw, anything less than 68" is an issue for me.  ask me why i have a 66" longbow on the classifieds now ....    :)  

yeah, i'm curious to see how nate can make less than 68" fit a 29" draw.  i know rik hinton's sunset hill is 66" and his draw length is the same as mine, 29".  i hope nate can educate me in that way, too.

Rob, please clarify "anything less than 68" is an issue for me"

Is it in your accuracy or overall feeling...many here have alluded to this "issue" in one way or another but it is still too vague for me..  I also think understanding the issue will lead me to make a better decision. [/b]

for me, with too short a bow, there are issues of stack, loss of smoothness, instability, and a missing 'feel' on release.  with some longbows, even 68" will be close but no cigar.  

all this isn't rocket science, it's closer to human evolution.

QuoteOriginally posted by highcountry:
We went down to the BIG city last weekend.  I stopped by my "crack house". The shop owner has a policy, you can't shoot a bow without purchase prior.  My policy is just the other side of the coin. Test drive prior to purchase.  I would of most likely bought a HH if I could of shot them 1st.  He had a Badger I really liked the looks of. Have you guys ever had a archery shop with the same policy? Buy before you can shoot it?

without a doubt, a vendor to avoid like the plague.

Now I'm leaving...going home to work in the  bowshop...  :archer2:  

Last night I worked on the computer too much and didn't get any 'real' work done...lol.

This has been a great thread guys, I didn't mean to horn in.  Keep it active and remember that information like this is teaching a multitude of longbow shooters what it is that makes true Hill style longbows really work. Better built Hill style longbows are being made today than ever before, and guys are asking more of the bowyers...

Honestly,  a few years ago had any of you ever asked a bowyer for a string follow longbow? or carmelized bamboo?  Honest questions and true answers will help promote our beloved Hill style longbows in a great way....

Yes, Rob,  you're on my list,  but now I'm backed up too long again.  I need to shut my mouth.....

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Yes, Rob,  you're on my list,  but now I'm backed up too long again.  I need to shut my mouth.....

i'm in no hurry.  you keep talking.  talk is cheap and sometimes good.  :)

Boy, I'm sure glad I got my list in before all this started!    :goldtooth:

Nate, I want on the list too. Did ya get my email??

Macatawa, my experience with a 29" draw and a 66" Hill mirrors Rob's, in that I found that I was a bit hit-and-miss with my accuracy. That's why I sold it to a friend with a shorter draw, who absolutely loves the bow, and am replacing it with a similar bow that is longer.

Wow i have a 64" wesley and i draw a true 28 1/2 and it feels fine to me.But i ordered a 66 inch this time just thought i would give a longer bow a try.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Kleinig:
Macatawa, my experience with a 29" draw and a 66" Hill mirrors Rob's, in that I found that I was a bit hit-and-miss with my accuracy. That's why I sold it to a friend with a shorter draw, who absolutely loves the bow, and am replacing it with a similar bow that is longer.

So, you will go with a 68"er?

Macatawa,
I have a 68" 60#@28 Hill Cheetah that is a straight profiled bow that I'd be glad to send you to try for yourself. I see you're from Michigan so it would be cheap to mail or if you live somewhere near me maybe just personally deliver.
My feeling is if you're a 29" draw 68" is best at a minimum like Ben suggests too.

QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
Here is a shot of a Hill string follow (on the right) and a Northern Mist (on the left).  Steve puts a bit more string follow on his bow than Craig does.

 (http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy241/davidmitchell_6466/Hill%20string%20follow/BigFivestringfollow005.jpg)

This photo is cool. I think the amount of string follow is merely one aspect of how sweet a bow feels and behaves.  I believe a key factor in the "sweetness" of the "s-follow" design is the limb with radius feels and behaves much better than one that is straight from the fades to the tip.

Rick,
Interesting on the "string follow" thing.  I thought that was a down-side of these bows. Apparently it can be a plus??

Thanks for the offer!  I will not be back to the states until mid-june sometime.  Will look you up when I get back..

Take care...Tony

Sounds good Tony.

Nope, a 70" bow. I already have a 70" Wesley Special, and really enjoy that length.

I also have a 29" draw. Started with a 66" Hill years ago. Didn't like anything about how it felt and I am sure that affected how I shot it so I got rid of it. It was awhile before I shot a Hill again but when I did I got a 68" on Craig's recommendation. It was much better than the first. Subsequently I tried a 70"er. That was the best so I got rid of the 68" and now all my Hill bows are 70".

yes, i agree ... i haven't found a "hill style" longbow less than 68" ntn that felt "right" on the draw, hold and release for a true 29" draw (to the front of the shelf).  depending on the design and build, sometimes 68" and sometimes 70".  all depends on the parameters and TILLERING.

That's good info...wisdom in a multitude of counsel for sure...saved me from a disappointment.

I waded into this with the preconceived idea that I "needed" a 66"er.  You all have educated me well!

Thanks a bunch!!   :notworthy:

Looks like Nate and Craig are doing quite well as a result of this thread.    :bigsmyl:   446 posts about Hill style bows--gotta love it.

not to mention there are other current hill threads.

interesting that pretty much none of the bowyers involved are trad gang sponsors.

nothing like free word-of-mouth advertising, eh?

Thanks guys this has been a great read , very interesting . No signal where I'm going for 2 weeks but Craig said my Big 5 will be on it's way just as I get back. This topic could be it's own category.

According to Howard Hill Himself he would never use a bow shorter than 69" with his 28" draw.  

I saw a nice quote in one of the trad gang signatures...

"Fear the man with one bow"

Thanks guys this has been a great read , very interesting . No signal where I'm going for 2 weeks but Craig said my Big 5 will be on it's way just as I get back. This topic could be it's own category.

Don't stop now!!

it'll pick up when the bows start rolling in ....

Rob said...

Quoteit'll pick up when the bows start rolling in ....  

mine are getting posted Monday .....   :goldtooth:

Re the number of posts ... Ain't a sponsor in site for nearly any of the bowyers who get mentioned which is a great pity.

Perhaps if Hill style bow enthusiasts had there own forum here on TG we could get some on board ...

On such a T'Gang Hill users forum we could talk discuss ...
*Plaid      :rolleyes:    
*Why we are cooler than everyone else ...     :smileystooges:    
*Why we are considered 'the kids who sit up the back of the bus ' and what our bad boy image means to us and the women who want us  ...     :saywhat:    
*How we ain't overly interested in the words letters 'fps' or carbon but very intersted in the words like 'back quiver' , stability , Redman and hog hunting ...  and elevated rests        :nono:    
*That long is better ... And that by definition 'short longbows' are for nancy boys       ;)      

I can think of a few guys who could admin the forum ... lol

In all seriousness I'd always prefer to give my $$$ to sponsors so if we can do anything to get them here i think it would be of great benefit to everyone .

Ben Maher: Too funny! You have the madness, but I agree, and so therefore must also be mad!

BIG FIVE in the house. Worked a deal with Thomas aka Hogdancer and got a fine Big Five. I did`nt get home till after dark so I strung her up and shot her in the house. About 15 yards and I was wearing out a golf ball size spot. HAPPY.
 It has action boo limbs with an extra lam of yew in the middle under clear glass with a Texas Ebony Riser. I will post pics tomorrow.Life is good,Thank you Lord.

Ben, I did sit in the back of the bus...and my Grandson thinks I`m cool and....RC

Alright RC!! I look forward to seeing pics.

Give a few more details like length, draw weight, ect.

Inquiring minds want to know...lol

God bless,Mudd

Mudd, Its 66" long and 52@27. Shoots the samw arrows I was shooting from my Mohawk like bullets. I put a big Magnus I on and it shot perfectly.Gold tip trad 35/55 with 250 grains in the nose.Kinda cool. The Mohawk at my draw is bout 5 pounds less but with the Hill not cut as deep they shoot fine. Kinda good cause I bought 24 from a TG member a while back.RC

Cant wait to see it .Congrats  :thumbsup:

Thnx for arrows heads up RC !
Looking foward to seeing you bow with some hogs pics ...

Congrats, can't wait for the pics.

Sounds like a purty one RC...can't wait to see it!  :coffee:

way to go RC!!  post it up when u can.

Last night I took out my copy of Hitting them like Howard Hill by John Schulz, in chapter 5 page 34 Mr. Schulz says that his favorite hunting bow is 68" long, and his draw was 26".     I beleive it is a preference what length one uses but i prefer my bows to be 68" or 70" long.                                                                                     Darren

Darren,
According to what Schultz has for a preference, I can't imagine that even a 68"er will be good for me as I draw 29"+ depending on what bow I am shooting.

Does it seem logical then for me to order a 70"er?  I think Rob shoots 68" and we both have the same draw.

with me and hill style longbows, depends on the individual bow.  it's mostly in the tillering.  typically, 68" lengths are fine for me.  a few weren't and should have been 70".  when in doubt, i'd go 70" for a 29" draw.  the big 5 i just ordered is 68", the miller tom is 70".  got both bases covered.  

after all, it's only money and time ....     :saywhat:       :cool:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
yes, i agree ... i haven't found a "hill style" longbow less than 68" ntn that felt "right" on the draw, hold and release for a true 29" draw (to the front of the shelf).  depending on the design and build, sometimes 68" and sometimes 70".  all depends on the parameters and TILLERING.

Rob, based on the parameters you suggested for me in your PM, and considering my 29" (heavy sometimes) draw, should I be thinking of a minimum 70" in the Tembo or the Wesley Special?

fwiw - after the 68" big5 and 70" ol tom arrive, and now that i'm a bonafide member of nate's loooong sunset hill list   :saywhat:     :)  , my next longbow will be a 70" t/d tembo.  i had a 68" tembo years ago and really liked it lots, and a t/d sleeve will be practical for my yearly flyaway hunts.

stay tuned later this year, the classifieds will have some longbows peppered here and there.   :D

....considering my 29" (heavy sometimes) draw, should I be thinking of a minimum 70" in the Tembo or the Wesley Special? ...


Go by the selected bowyers recommendations. Based on my experience I would say that 70" would be fine with bows from Craig or Steve Turay as they use much longer risers, thus have shorter working limbs, than bows from Nate, or David Miller. The bowyer should steer you right based upon what you want out of the bow!

Spanky

Tony, I think the answer you are looking for is a bow that is tillered with the limbs whip ended will present them selves with a steep string angle at full draw giving it a feeling of stacking.  A person with your longer draw length would be better served with a limb tillered with much less movement in the tips.  More of a crescent look at full draw.

Rick

Spanky, I'll do just that when I get home.  I have learned tons of important stuff in the past two days that might just rekindle my love for the longbow as it was in the days I embraced the tradition.  

And, of course it really does not matter the cost if I can manage to capture that "perfect" one..

I have owned and shot so many different bows in my life but have always felt a kinship with the one Howard shot....crazy I know, but true indeed!

The only other bow I consider truly priceless was one that my friend OL Adcock made for me years ago.  Not because it was a good shooter (it truly was a blast to shoot) but because it was made by a good friend.

I am happy to have had the chance to meet you all here.  Will follow you guys around like a puppy 'till I can truly shoot 'em like Howard.

Macatawa-
For your draw I would go with the 70", you could shoot the 68" but the 70" will be perfect.

Someone told me this one time about long limbs:

They said, If two kids are on a see-saw, and one of the kids is fat, it would be much easier to pickup the fat kid with a longer see-saw then a short see-saw.

Howard Hill talks about longer limbs on his bows in Hunting the Hardway. His book has lots of useful information; it covers the bow design, his style of shooting and hunting. I've had my copy for almost 20years and I still go through it and reference what Hill actual said.

Darren

I'm on here looking for the pictures of RC's new-to-him Hill bow.

Has anyone seen it yet?

I hope he isn't waiting until later today until after he's killed a couple of hogs and a few deer long with a mess of squirrels before he posts pictures...lol

God bless,Mudd

:laughing:

I pull 29" and my Owl and Tembo both shoot just fine. My 70" Redman now, she's as smooth as butter! A little lighter in weight but on the pull, I can feel the difference.

I have to say that this forum is awesome and the wealth of information/insight has helped me immensely over the two years since my forage into traditional archery.  This thread is no exception.  

I am in the market for my first Hill Style longbow and have been on the fence for a while largely due to deciding bow length.  I have decided on a Tembo and want it built with stringfollow.  I am 5'8" with small hands and a 26" draw and find myself going back and forth between a 64" length or a 66". Any suggestions?

Craig.

much as we'd like to see them a bunch shorter like their mild r/d cousins, without a doubt longer is better with hill style longbows.  short risers + long limbs = overall goodyness.

QuoteOriginally posted by newtotrad:
I have to say that this forum is awesome and the wealth of information/insight has helped me immensely over the two years since my forage into traditional archery.  This thread is no exception.  

I am in the market for my first Hill Style longbow and have been on the fence for a while largely due to deciding bow length.  I have decided on a Tembo and want it built with stringfollow.  I am 5'8" with small hands and a 26" draw and find myself going back and forth between a 64" length or a 66". Any suggestions?

Craig.

my advice is if yer ridin' the length fence, always opt longer for the safer bet.

Rob,
Thank you for the advice. I think leaning to a longer length is probably the best.

newotrad-

John Schulz has a 26" draw and prefered a 68" bow in his book Hitting them like Howard Hill.

Darren

I have owned both 68" and 70" Hills, draw 30" and perfer the 68" over the 70". The 68" just feels more crisp on release to me. But this is really splitting hairs. Either way you can't go wrong. I have owned at least eight Hills in one model or another and all one piece / locator grips. With that said, my most recent Hill is the Cheetha in a take down with the small sleeve that I really like the best so far. And I'm more of a recurve shooter so that says something for the t/d straight grip. Good luck and have fun with whatever you decide, most likely you buy more than one anyways LOL

newtotrad, I agree totally with Rob's advice   :thumbsup:

I took the Flu Shot, I'm good for HH bugs this year.

QuoteOriginally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I took the Flu Shot, I'm good for HH bugs this year.

Not me im full blown sick   :laughing:

Thanks for all the input guys.

Sixby if you want to start making this style let me know I'm really starting to want one with Osage and Yew limbs with a Walnut or Black Locust riser.

You guys are going to ruin my bank account.  I'm going to have to stop overpaying my monthly due on my truck so I can have money to buy more bows.

Well, we finally got a break in the rain and 'ole Mr. Sunshine decided to peak in on us. So, the obvious thing to do was take a break from the arrow building and go shoot my "Owl".
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/TradNut/101_0315.jpg)

I LOVE THE BEND OF A STRAIGHT LIMB "D" BOW!   :goldtooth:

nice form, tw - good arm extensions and everything is lined up parallel with the shaft.  now where's yer bow cant?  :)

and yeah, the bent "D" limbs and the back quiver are "traditional bowhunting".  :thumbsup:

Rob it's just the angle. The bow is canted but, not real exaggerated. If you look closely at the lower limb, you will see it's actually outside of my left leg. Thanks for the compliment, coming from you, that means a lot.    :notworthy:

Thats what im talking about.Nice picture  :thumbsup:

Not to tie this thread in with the carbon arrow thread but, those are AD Trad Lites with approx. 190gr up front and, they were flying straight and hitting pretty darn hard. I had to change the point weight when I first started but, it worked like a charm!   :thumbsup:

How bout my new to me Big Five...One hard shooting rascal.RC

(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/IMG_1326.jpg)

(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/IMG_1327.jpg)

(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/IMG_1325.jpg)

I knew you where out playing, any pigs too show us?

Good to see some photos, lads!

No pigs. thats the swamp behind my house where I go stumping.Going on a two day hunt tomorrow for pork and treerats.RC

Nice looking Big 5 RC...congrats!  :clapper:  

Spanky

Great looking bow RC! Look forward to some bacon pics when you return.   :thumbsup:    :clapper:

Yes great looking bow.  :thumbsup:

RC
Dandy!!!

Could use some specs and a little more on your impression...how does it compare with your other bows?  :help:

Nice looking bow RC!   I'm sure tomorrow will be awesome!   Take your camera and post some pictures!   By the way, are you shooting 2016's out of her?

Thanks Guys. It is a fine bow. First time I`ve had one with a staight grip. It feels good but I think I would rather have a slight locator. Regardless it shoots where I`m looking.
Its 55@28 and 66" long. I`m shooting goldtip trads 35/55 With 250 grains up front. Not as heavy as I like for this kinda bow. I`m gonna get some wood arrows of some sort I think. Its been a while since I`ve hunted with wood but I`m kinda wanting to. I got some Ace 200 grain heads on the way I want to put through a big boar.I`ve found two Big Mature pigs and I`m gonna be after them .RC

RC you done good buddy!! Awesome looking bow!

Pictures of yours made me get an indoor range set up. Actually I set up two one I can only get 4-5 yards and the other is 9 yards.

I'm used to shooting a lot at 33 yards so this is a challenge.

"Keeper Kat" is as sweet at short distances as she is outside...lol

Thanks for sharing RC.

I look forward to seeing the pig(s) that get introduced to your new bow.

God bless,Mudd

Good luck, RC!

Great looking bows fellows!

Thanks to everyone for the vast amount of information shared in this thread. That "Hill Bug" has biten me pretty badly, and now I feel I can make a more educated choice.

I'll second what stik&string just stated.

I hear Big Jim is gonna work up a Hill style bow in a little while.I`ve done got dibs on the first one..RC

My drawlength is 25", heigth is 5'10", Glove Size is "S". My Hill/Hill-Style bows are 62" to 65" with riserlengths of 13" to 14". The shorter ones work better for me.

why isn't any of this stated in the catolog or online - how to fit the correct bow to one specific DL for maxiumum performence ? It seems to me that there are an awful lot of people whom didn't know these facts and bought the wrong length bows . Even , I presume that they called and talked to a bowyer when they made their orders , unless they just made what the customer wanted without advising otherwise . So for example , I pull 27.50"to 28" - by what I have read on hear I would want a 69"(thats what Howard used) bow - what would be the nock to nock length on that bow - 67" ? Help !

QuoteOriginally posted by Bent Rig:
why isn't any of this stated in the catolog or online - how to fit the correct bow to one specific DL for maxiumum performence ?

good question.  some bowyers/companies offer guidelines for draw length versus bow length, some don't.

It seems to me that there are an awful lot of people whom didn't know these facts and bought the wrong length bows .

absolutely true, but less so from a private bowyer who more than likely would contact the buyer should the spex show a 29" draw for a 66" hill style longbow

Even , I presume that they called and talked to a bowyer when they made their orders , unless they just made what the customer wanted without advising otherwise . So for example , I pull 27.50"to 28" - by what I have read on hear I would want a 69"(thats what Howard used) bow - what would be the nock to nock length on that bow - 67" ? Help !

firstly, bow lengths should be as ntn.  that would be an amo given.  second, some archers have no problem with a 29" draw and a 66" hill longbow.  all hill longbows are not alike, not all have the same limb widths, core depths and tillering.  without trying an example of a bowyer, yer playing money and time games.  when in doubt, ALWAYS go longer.  i have a 29" draw and a 68" craig hill longbow works just fine.  i've got a miller ol' tom on order and that WILL be 70" ntn.  hope this helps.

Guys the facts are that alot of Hill bows today are built to a formula for the masses! Riser length, limb tapers, and tiller all have to be adjusted to an archers EXACT draw, hand width, and grip depth and not just to bow length in order to get the proper arc in the limbs for EACH archer! You absolutly will not fit to the same length bow from one bowyer to the next and get optimum performance from each. A 68-69" bow might work fine for you from one bowyer, but from the next it either stacks or is too slow and thumpy! As I stated previously, the difference in a Hill bow that has truly been fit to you and one that has not, is like the difference between night and day...there is NO comparison! As for the stuff printed in older writings from Hill and Schultz, they didn't write everything they knew and they continued to refine there bows after those texts were written. The later information was passed only to a select few people especially from John who was very tight-mouthed about his designs. In his later years as John refined his designs and started to incorporate different profiles, he actually shot bows much shorter and lighter than he did early on! I say all this to remind us all that designs and materials continue to evolve making your bowyer the only true source of accurate up to date information for what you need now!

Spanky

Ive only shot recurves and with my DL=27.5" will I lose some DL going to a bow like this?

If you shoot with proper Hill form you may lose up to an inch of draw, depending upon how straight your bow arm is with the recurve.

Spanky

Thought I had read that somewhere.Thanks.

i could care less about hill, schulz and 'hill form'.  i don't want 'hill form', i don't like 'hill form' at all.  i like MY form.  

MY form is all that matters and that means having an american flat longbow that WORKS.  for me.  not you.  or hill.  or schulz.  

the bold truth is that longer limbs and good tillering make for a good american flat longbow.  can it be better than that?  i think so, if the bowyer does take into consideration unique qualities of the archer.

the rest is, well, subjective rhetoric and diatribe.  imho.

as a personal observation over the last 55 years of messing with archery and bowhunting, guys that start off with too short and too heavy a holding weight stick bow ALWAYS increase their draw length when they up the bow length and lower the holding weight.

Bent Rig-If you contact Jason or Craig at HH they will walk you right through the process. Nobody asked me what the size of my hand was or anything like that. I gave Jason my draw length(27 to 27.5)and the weight I wanted(54#'s) and he made the recommendation for me(64 to 66"bow). Never owning a Hill bow before I took his advice and ordered a 66" Wesley Special 54@27. These guys know how to build a bow and know whats best for the customer.
As far as all this technical stuff guys are talking about it is very interesting to me. It has taught me alot about bows in general. But I buy a bow to hunt with and thats it. So my opinion is if MY Hill bow shoots where I want it too and it's comfortable to me then thats all that matters. If I want to use a stay puff marshmallow grip and it works then thats what I'll use. Point is,this is all good stuff here and teaches people what COULD go into choosing a bow. As for me,I let the bowyer tell me what size I need and they haven't failed me yet. This is all my opinion of course.

the additional things i request when ordering out a craig hill longbow, any model ...

* narrow throat locator handle, non-tear drop cross section

* shelf plate wood cut no more than 1/16" proud of the limb centerline

* tiller to 30" (1" past my draw length)

* thinned limb tip overlays

I did also pick my grip and limb tips.

Hey Rob, are you tryiong to get my specs from me to ruin my surprise?  :nono:  

I'm still not telling what I ordered.

Rob, I agree with you,

"the bold truth is that longer limbs and good tillering make for a good american flat longbow. can it be better than that? i think so, if the bowyer does take into consideration unique qualities of the archer."

Like I pointed out in John Schulz is book Hitting them like Howard Hill, Mr. Schulz's favorite bow was 68" for his 26" draw.

For almost the last 20years, I shot bows that where 66", 68", 69" and 70" at my 28"draw very well, but I tend to prefer the longer lengths 68" thru 70.

Darren

Thanks Guys , just trying to get as much info as possible so when the time comes I'm ready with all my spec's and questions for the bowyer when called upon . I don't have a problem with longer .  :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
as a personal observation over the last 55 years of messing with archery and bowhunting, guys that start off with too short and too heavy a holding weight stick bow ALWAYS increase their draw length when they up the bow length and lower the holding weight.

Amen!

Just an FYI learned from experience my first entrance into the "longbow" world came about in 1994 after 30 years shooting recurves. Was shooting a 66" 68# Gamemaster Jet at that time and had been shooting recurves of that weight, or thereabouts for over 20 years.

So, because of all the R/D trend at that time I tried a 70# 60" Pronghorn longbow. Never ever did get to a similar accrucay with that bow as my recurves because it stacked(was way too short) for my nearly 29" draw. Many said you can not shoot a longbow the same way you shoot a recurve-one had to shoot quickly, not delibertly like with a recurve. Well, I tried it that way and it was worse for me.

As the years progressed I could never get it out of my mind that the "longbow" had beaten me. Sure every other year or so I'd try another one-whatever was the latest, greatest since sliced bread model but the results were always the same.

Fast forward to 2010 and the "longbow" bug and my personal defeat with it are still forefront in my memory so decided to give it one last try. Always loved the simplicity of a "stick and string", wood arrows in a back quiver and just wondering through hill and dale ala "Witchery of Archery" style.

So what will be different with this foray into the "longbow" world this time you might ask? Well, I'm treating this venture like I've nver shot a bow before and starting with a 64", 30# @ 26" Howard Hill Big Five to learn the correct ways of the "longbow"! As I progress into this adventure there will be a Miller all bamboo and a Sunset Hill(new model) waiting to fulfill my dreams. Yep, even after 49 years of shooting the bow one can still have dreams.

Here is my Hill Big Five, 64" 30# @ 26".

(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee200/kelly1049/CB-lnwBWkKGrHqZi4E0F777CgLBNJnfbmoT_12.jpg)

Here is my Miller all bamboo, 66" 50# @ 28".

(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee200/kelly1049/100_0036.jpg)

My Sunset Hill, a project in waiting but will get you a picture as soon as I receive it, will be 66" and around 42# @ 28".

real longbows. just gorgeous.  :thumbsup:

Nice Kelly, real nice!

Rob, I will say this, I went ahead and stayed with the locator grip. And maybe a couple other suggestions you made.

Very nice   :archer:

Great looking bows Kelly! I like the looks of the Miller.   :thumbsup:

Lookin good Kelly!

I need to clarify the statement about John's favorite bow from the early 70s.  The 68" 'Big Enough', although it was his favorite length at that time, later he shot 66" and when he went to his string follow and all wood designs he was shooting 64". he maintained his 261/4" draw.  I have shot bows from 96 down to less than 40 pounds and I also shoot a little over 26" draw on all of them.  I tried 27" for a while with an 89 pounder and 72 pound bow, I was advised by Schulz that I was over drawing and went back to cutting my broadheads to 263/4" to the back of the blade. I pull the blade to my finger when I shoot, giving me about a 261/4" draw.  I have seen a bunch of guys over bowed with heavy longbows that would jam their bow arm, collapse in the shoulders and loose draw length; if you start out light and maintain that bent bow arm and shoulder control while going up in bow weight, your shooting and your shoulder will be better off.  Two of my favorite bows is a 68"Halfbreed blank tillered to a whip end for my short draw and the Timberline myrtle handled yew that I just picked up which is also 68".

I may have to give the locator grip a try.

On the other hand, we all know the old saying "If it ain't broke....."..lol

God bless,Mudd

QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
I may have to give the locator grip a try.

On the other hand, we all know the old saying "If it ain't broke....."..lol

God bless,Mudd

it's all subjective personal preference, as with most things in life.  no such thing as a better or best grip, bow, arrow, etc.

hey, are we havin' fun ............ yet?!  :D

Pavan that is a great reply.  I like how you mentioned you whip end shaped your blank to enhance your personal draw length.  Of course Schulz enjoyed the freedom to experiment and for one reason he chose a certain length and limb arc vs another.  He didn't necessarily choose one length bow at his draw length to be the one and only perfect bow, but he did know how to achieve what was the best  ntn length for the way he wanted to tiller a particular bow.  The difference in the limb arc does not need to be a large amount different to produce fine results.
Target style (lighter arrows) vs hunting weight arrows perform better with differently a shaped limb arc, but when you tiller a bow a certain way you must change the length nock to nock to maximze efficiency and overall feel.
It is my opinion through this great thread we are all enjoying the one critically important piece of information for having a bow that is the correct length and shape is  "what weight is my preferred choice of arrow".


Some like EFOC others like lighter arrows etc.
That's where the journey begins....

On my yew Hill, I have given it a locator that is a copy, although deeper, of the grip off my 50s 72" Bear Kodiak. I tweaked it until I need to do nothing with my bow hand to shoot. When the grip is right, it's right.  I have another one that is due for tweaking when the time comes for refinishing. I am wondering how difficult it would get, when ordering, to really get fussy on particular subtleties of shape to the locator grip.  Quite often when someone loves or hates a bow, it starts and ends with the grip.

Okay... We've waited patiently.   We need details of the Big 5's escapades in the swamp today RC!

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
as a personal observation over the last 55 years of messing with archery and bowhunting, guys that start off with too short and too heavy a holding weight stick bow ALWAYS increase their draw length when they up the bow length and lower the holding weight.

Yes..this is the truth.  When I shot the "all to short" bear recurves for too many years, I trained myself to pull against the stacking. It was all we had...did not know there were actually bows with longer limbs.  Years later, when I found there were actually more comfortable (appropriate) bows to shoot, I found myself drawing a full 32"...no kidding.     :p  

Took a couple years with good bows to rectify this problem..now shooting 29" pretty consistently.

QuoteOriginally posted by SpankyNeal:
Guys the facts are that alot of Hill bows today are built to a formula for the masses! Riser length, limb tapers, and tiller all have to be adjusted to an archers EXACT draw, hand width, and grip depth and not just to bow length in order to get the proper arc in the limbs for EACH archer! ......

Spanky

Dang..if this is true, then I best not ever consider buying a used bow in the classifieds...

Bummer!!    

I would`nt hesitate to buy a hill bow in the classifieds or any bow I wanted and could afford for that matter.A lot of "proper" fitting can go into a bow but truth is one thats the correct length for your draw or close will shoot plenty good.RC

X2 what RC said.....!!

God bless,Mudd

I'll ditto that RC.

Thanks RC...that is good to know.  I was counting on a "good deal"  

Rob suggested that I talk with the bowyer - give him parameters and have one made for me.  I'll prolly do that up front 'till I feel more at ease to pick-up a good used one tho..

It does seem there are a few experienced Hill boys here that don't agree on this issue.. not surprising.

I am at the beginning of my learning curve here.  Just beginning to weigh these considerations.

Thanks again..

QuoteOriginally posted by SpankyNeal:
Guys the facts are that alot of Hill bows today are built to a formula for the masses! Riser length, limb tapers, and tiller all have to be adjusted to an archers EXACT draw, hand width, and grip depth and not just to bow length in order to get the proper arc in the limbs for EACH archer! You absolutly will not fit to the same length bow from one bowyer to the next and get optimum performance from each. A 68-69" bow might work fine for you from one bowyer, but from the next it either stacks or is too slow and thumpy! As I stated previously, the difference in a Hill bow that has truly been fit to you and one that has not, is like the difference between night and day...there is NO comparison! As for the stuff printed in older writings from Hill and Schultz, they didn't write everything they knew and they continued to refine there bows after those texts were written. The later information was passed only to a select few people especially from John who was very tight-mouthed about his designs. In his later years as John refined his designs and started to incorporate different profiles, he actually shot bows much shorter and lighter than he did early on! I say all this to remind us all that designs and materials continue to evolve making your bowyer the only true source of accurate up to date information for what you need now!

Spanky

i don't believe that at all.  not in my experience after getting a glut of craig built hills, and a few by other far lesser known bowyers.

the real problem is that a LOT of hill style longbow archers don't know what they're ordering or what to specifically request.

there COULD BE some esoteric nuances that a 'bow-tique bowyer' could offer over a more 'mass produced' bow such as what craig offers.  in fairness, craig is NOT a mass producing production line bow company, he WILL listen to you and in most cases he'll accommodate your longbow needs and requirements.  this is true for the very vast majority of bowyers.  you just need to know what to order.  for you.  not for me.

so what's really left?  

overall bow design, materials, craftsmanship, tillering, finishing.  pick a bowyer and get yer feet wet.  we've all been there and it's all a crap shoot of sorts.  just look at the classifieds.

lets also put all of the bow design, bow materials, length vs width, "what's best for me", yadda yadda yadda stuff in perspective - if you think that these "slight nuances" are gonna be deal makers or breakers for you to bring home the bacon, yer definitely nuttier than me, and i'm a bona fide nut case when it comes to longbows.    :D

the arrow is still the god of archery - NOT the bow.

Rob said:
"and i'm a bona fide nut case when it comes to longbows."

Rob...I figured....HA!  That's the real reason I bend your ear.  Maybe I am too picky...yeah, I am but it is the "nuances" that I like....and that is why I can take your "nutcase" list to craig and get what I want.

Rob, buddy...don't forget to take your meds..     :eek:

All of these "nuances" have got me wondering?? I have a Robin Hood "in the mail" to me. I talked to Craig b4 I ordered it. I told him that I have a 27" draw and a tight fitting work glove size hand. (a tight medium/ a little loose large) He suggested a 66" or 68" bow. Ok I ordered it @ 66" with a slightly smaller dished grip. I am under the impression that shooting a Hill is different than shooting most other longbows, so if that's the case, won't "I just learn to shoot it the way it is?" Like, get use to it and learn to like it? How can someone decide what's right for them without shooting alot of other Hill style bows to figure out the "nuances?" I hope my info to Craig was enough to get me in the ball park? Oh, one other question.. Can I turn a dished grip into a locator grip if I want to or is the dished design wrong to allow it?

What a great thread this has been! Lots of great info and Purdy bows!

Rob, I think you'll be pleased with the string follow bows. You'll find its not same as a bow that has "taken set". It'll be a sweet shooter and still push an arrow with the best of them, I know mine dont run out of gas at 20 yds!

Macatawa, you'll be fine with a 68" bow.

A Hill bow, handfull of woodies and walk in the woods...Its good for what ales ya!

Eric

(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h121/mandoman_2006/DSC01974.jpg)

Rob, I guess I don't understand exactly what I said that you don't agree with, but I did not mean that Craig or anyone else for that matter, were mass producing bows! The more nitpicky the bowyer is about your various measurements, shooting style etc. and the more you are as well, the better the bow is going to work for you. If you go to a trad expo and pick a bow off the shelf that is tillered for a 28" draw, that bow was designed for a generic, average person with a 28" draw....will it work for you maybe, maybe not! The nuances are not a make or break deal, they simply can turn a good experience into a great experience!

As for used bows, unless the bow is tillered very close to my 26.5" draw I don't buy it...works fine with other bows, but not Hills.

Spanky

Rob,  I'm going to politely disagree with you, no hard feelings...

Back when Hill wrote his books, he was writing to the masses, and still using mostly unfiberglassed bows.  He preferred longer bows and they fit him because of his size and draw and the durability of a longer unfiberglassed bow.  His bow formula with reflex worked for a longer bow.  He taught bowyers how to build his style of bows with these specs in mind.  At that time, he preferred those specs......

fast forward to the 70's...John Schulz was building bows how he was taught,  long and with much reflex, and his preferred bow was 68" for a 26" draw...but his bows at that time were heavily reflexed and the longer length kept them stable yet very fast shooters...but in the back of his mind, he remembers Hill tutelage about string follow bows, and he gradually changed his bowmaking to follow Hill's personal instruction.  Schulz's personal bows became much shorter...the bow in his video is only 64", because he was departing from the radical reflex bows to a softer string follow style as per Hill's instruction.  His bowmaking was modified to take advantage of Hill's preferences in bowdesign and modern materials like good fiberglass and his later bows built for Hill himself used this thinking....

fast forward to the 90's...Schulz is now only making all bamboo/wood bows following Hill's early bowmaking principles, but allowing for current technology  and making short bows sized to the individual shooter.  He shot bows as short as 62"...

I'm stating this to say that as time has progressed, the Hill style bows design as made by Hill and Schulz (his ace student) also progressed.  If we make a static statement concerning Hill's or Schulz's bow preferences,  we need to look at the time period and bow design that statement refers to, or we are in the wrong context of the statement.

Rob,  You have stated numerous times that you have had a gaggle of Hill style longbows.  I don't know how many you have now, but I wonder how many you've sold because they weren't 'right' for you....not in cosmetics, but in shooting characteristics.  You've had a chance to specify how you like the bow to be made, and yet they still might not fit you.  I've seen a photo of your bowform...in my opinion it is very much a target/recurve form.  That is not a bad thing at all. It is YOUR form.  However, I've seen way too many guys with a target/recurve form not be able to shoot a Hill style bow well, not because of the bow, but the style of shooting wasn't conducive.  The Hill style bow has it's own nuances in shooting and it's more critical of those nuances than recurves or r/d bows are.  Maybe the reason you've not found the holy grail of Hill style longbows is that your shooting style is more conducive to a r/d bow or recurve...that statement is not meant in a demeaning or derogatory way, nor does it reflect on your joy of holding and shooting a hill style longbow... it's just food for thought.  Discussions like this help newbie Hill style longbow shooter think about their choices and what fits best for them.

I know a bowyer who has learned from Schulz. If he's in the right mood he tells you the true storys about riser length, bow length, etc. But only if he's in the right mood! I think that's the point with a lot of people. There are not "secrets", but little, tiny details. These details can make a huge difference in a bow.

QuoteOriginally posted by SpankyNeal:
Rob, I guess I don't understand exactly what I said that you don't agree with, but I did not mean that Craig or anyone else for that matter, were mass producing bows! The more nitpicky the bowyer is about your various measurements, shooting style etc. and the more you are as well, the better the bow is going to work for you. If you go to a trad expo and pick a bow off the shelf that is tillered for a 28" draw, that bow was designed for a generic, average person with a 28" draw....will it work for you maybe, maybe not! The nuances are not a make or break deal, they simply can turn a good experience into a great experience!

As for used bows, unless the bow is tillered very close to my 26.5" draw I don't buy it...works fine with other bows, but not Hills.

Spanky

basically, your initial statement ...

 

QuoteOriginally posted by SpankyNeal:
Guys the facts are that alot of Hill bows today are built to a formula for the masses! ...

as i've stated, most bowyers will make at least some accommodations to their designs, but in most cases, you gotta know what you want and know what to ask about.

the rest are all about the nuances - short or medium or long riser, every aspect of limb design, tillering, shelf design, handle and grip, and ad naseum.

let me repeat - the bow is not nearly as important as the arrow.  when a bow "fits" you well, then yes, that can and typically will enhance accurate consistency.  but it is NOT a panacea for criticality.  

to those who think the bow is THAT critical, you are officially absolved of your worry and pain.  go forth with a friendly longbow and your best arrows and kill something good for suppers.  

put this all into proper perspective.  we are traditional bowhunters and our weapons range from a simple rasped and scraped stick of wood to a laminated carbon/wood/glass/foam/whatever thing that has little resemblance to that primordial stick.

it DOES matter, but not that much.  really.  trust me on this.  getting a longbow that puts you in the ballpark for feel and performance isn't as difficult as some would have you believe.  really.  we all can have a tendency at times to obsess over minutiae.

QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,  I'm going to politely disagree with you, no hard feelings...

no, not at all, sir!  it's fine and good to disagree and debate.

i'll be blunt yet again.  i don't care at all about how howard hill made or shot his longbows.  

i care about the looks of an american flat longbow, the long, narrow and thickish limbs, the short riser and well bent limbs.  this is mostly about aesthetics and not cast performance because most any decent r/d "longbow" will outperform the best "hill style" longbow, pound for pound of holding weight with the same arrow.

to those who wish to emulate howard or john or any other howard-like disciple, cool.  have at it.  i will tell you this - you are better off working on your own form, as it applies to your physique than someone else's if you wish to excel at trad bowhunting.  

and for the record, nate, i do NOT have a "target/recurve form".  you want to discuss the nuances of that, pm me.

QuoteOriginally posted by tg2nd:
I know a bowyer who has learned from Schulz. If he's in the right mood he tells you the true storys about riser length, bow length, etc. But only if he's in the right mood! I think that's the point with a lot of people. There are not "secrets", but little, tiny details. These details can make a huge difference in a bow.

no no no, those differences MIGHT make some kinda difference in a bow.  maybe.  

there are *SO* many variables in a piece of wood 'n' glass that to think a human can clone that precise goodness from bow to bow is like believing in the tooth fairy.  i'm a luthier, i equate bow building with acoustic quitar making - if someone knew how to clone either *perfectly*, every time, they would be ... GOD.   :cool:  

however, a good bowyer should be able to make your bow journey easier in many ways, and deliver a bow to you that, for the very most part, will make you a happy archer and hunter.

Perhaps i believe in the tooth fairy?? (brought me some money as a child)   :bigsmyl:

QuoteOriginally posted by tg2nd:
Perhaps i believe in the tooth fairy?? (brought me some money as a child)    :bigsmyl:  

yeah, and ya know what pt barnum said?  :)

Sorry, but I don't know pt barnum or what he said. Hope you tell me.

PT Branum said "A Sucker born every minute"

My first hill longbows were made by Schulz, then Schulz went on to make his own trimmer line.  The next Hill bows I got were not made by Craig or Schulz.  One made by Meggs was quite different than either one, not a bad bow.  One day I made a tiller board and took a 66" Schulz and traced it at different draw lengths.  When comparing the two i noticed quite a difference in how they bent.  The Meggs bent much more at the handle, so I changed it to match the Schulz and then went a little further.  I flight shot the bow many times before I did this.  In the end I reduced the poundage of the bow by 8 pounds and it did not slow down at all.  It shot the same arrow, with same authority, the same distance.  I had another longer much heavier Hill, not built by Craig, I was tempted to try something with that one, but the tips were nearly as thick as the rest of the limb.  But I did flight shoot it.  it would not shoot as stiff a spine as the 64 pound Schulz, which was 25 pounds lighter nor would it shoot any arrow as far. I sold it to someone that thought he had to have.  Todays hills are more like those first hills, with a gentler reflex than the Meggs i had or the other ones.  I say all this to point out that a little change here and there in the Hill style bows that I have seen over the years can make a substantial difference.

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
...I say all this to point out that a little change here and there in the Hill style bows that I have seen over the years can make a substantial difference.

and i do believe you and that you are correct, sir.

however, i consider that a "substantial difference" be put into the grander scheme of things, to whit, is it so large a difference as to be night and day, or at the other end is it a subtle difference?  and to who - me or you or ... ?  what does all of this really mean to the average trad bowhunter?

iow, each of us are 'experiments of one' when it comes to subjective stuff like longbows.  and each of us has likes and dislikes, and some of these qualities are poles apart.  

in the end, all that matters is bow that is a joy to the eyes, feels good in the hand, pulls sweetly, releases gently, and helps your good arrow to hit the mark and bring home the game.

it's not rocket science, nor does it ever need be.

all the rest is curious interest.

Rob stated ...
 

Quotein the end, all that matters is bow that is a joy to the eyes, feels good in the hand, pulls sweetly, releases gently, and helps your good arrow to hit the mark and bring home the game  

Sums it up nicely !

I should have added that I think that the bows available from Craig Ekin are quite simply great bows.  It must be pointed out as well that this little tillering trick works for a 26" draw, the same bow had less than a two pound per inch build up out to 27 inches and only two pounds from 27 to 28 inches. The difference in this case was substantial, because the bows performance remained the same and the person that is now shooting it could not handle it at 50 pounds, but she can shoot it all day at 42. The person who has that bow now won't let anyone touch it, and i bet it would stack past 27 inches. i was in a hurry my wife left the interior lights on in my Suv and needed a jump.

:bigsmyl:  

Feed me!!  This is ALL good!!    :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:    

Interesting historical perspective blended with a lot of personal experience and preference..

Someone once said: "too many cooks spoil the soup" but that is not the case here..not at all.

Rob,

I agree with you,  this longbow shooting should be a simple, enjoyable process.  It's not rocket science.  That said, there are reasons why some bows shoot better for some people than other bows.  It is these reasons that we discuss openly on this forum, so that people can learn information that has been held 'secret' for so long.  Maybe someone is learning something that will help them purchase a bow that will fit them and their shooting style.

These simple longbows are great in that they are so simple.  However, they are not just a 'pull 'er back and let 'er fly' thing.  If that is the approach one wants to take, then that is their perogative, and one of the joys of this sport.  However, there are so many small things that can be adjusted, from limb tiller to handle size, to bow length, etc. that make the bow shoot as well as possible for that individual....very much the same as a ILF recurve bow can be adjusted in limb tiller, handle length, bow length, etc. to make it shoot as well as possible.

Why do we as archers accept that a tournament or other style recurve or R/D bow has umpteen ways to get it shooting and feeling perfect while a Hill style longbow must always feel thumpy, slow, and 'get used to it or sell it'?  These "simple" straight end longbows can be made to perform splendidly....and all this 'forum chatter' helps further that end.

Nate

nate, i couldn't agree more with you, sir.

there are those who will ask for a bow built by model, length and draw weight, with no other input.  and they may be happy hunters with said bow, and kill tons of game for decades.  or too soon, as the newness wears off, the bow becomes a dog to them, and it ends up in the classifieds.  either way, more input to and from the bowyer is always a good thing.  there is always the element of luck with a new bow, no matter who the bowyer or what the parameters.  less chances are taken when you can work with a knowledgeable bowyer.  

and, imo, a specific type of stick bow (i.e., hill straight or backset or string follow, or mild r/d or aggressive r/d, etc) does not dictate a specific shooting form be required, in order to reach its maximum potential.      


however, if specific stick bow parameters are employed, as they apply to the archer in question, there is far greater a chance the resulting bow will be a better shooter.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:


.....however, if specific stick bow parameters are employed, as they apply to the archer in question, there is far greater a chance the resulting bow will be a better shooter.

I am by nature, a lot like Rob I think.  Can be happy with something good but, if it can be better, even a little bit, I am interested.  

Years ago my job was to eliminate process variation in aircraft fuel systems manufacturing. That in itself has nothing to do with trad archery but the mindset applies to all of life, imo.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good place to start but in my own insanity, I can't help but to tweak it a bit, especially if it doesn't cost more and the end result translates to my own personal view of perfection...in this case...perfect simplicity and historic beauty.

So, as Rob suggested, I will feed the knowledgeable bowyer with as much info as he   "employs the specific stik bow parameters" to ensure that there is a better chance that my first of many will be a good shooter.

Not rocket science here...just good sense, imo

This thread needs to get back to the basics i think people try to make this too difficult.I can give a bow to leatherneck and he can pound a bullseye with most bows very quickly from recurve to a hill.This is a picture of Dirty Bob first day shooting and shooting great all ready with his new to him Wesley Special. (http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj10/longbowben/DSC06795.jpg)

(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj10/longbowben/DSC06798.jpg)

Welcome to the gang Dirty Bob   :clapper:

Rob, thanks for not telling me.

And welcome to the Hill clan!  :clapper:  

Ben, those of us that have been shooting them for a while get bored with the usual stuff, so we get picky!

I just wanted to get back on track.There are lots of hill bows being built right now and i cant wait to see them all.What one person thinks is right is wrong to another we are all individuals and like things different from others.I would love to see your collection of hill style bows.Do you live close to pelee island if so i will be their in july 23-30.

Onya Dirty Bob !
nice lookin stic mate !

Nice bow, Dirty Bob!

Man, that's a nice looking bow!

  :thumbsup:

yeah, enuf of this esoteric stuff.  

another big 5 i had a few years back ...

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/b5braced.jpg)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/b5handle2.jpg)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/b5tip.jpg)

ah yes. an abbott! with really loooong fadeouts ...

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/ab11.jpg)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/ab1.jpg)

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/ab6.jpg)

Rob, Dirty Bobs bow should look familiar to you.

QuoteOriginally posted by WESTBROOK:
What a great thread this has been! Lots of great info and Purdy bows!

 (http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h121/mandoman_2006/DSC01974.jpg)

Now that is a postcard pic if I ever saw one.

You know something just ain't right when three guys come home from work and are shooting Hills in the dark at midnight!! In teen weather to boot!!! Or should I say it was all tooooo right. I just could not wait to try Dirty Bobs new to him Wesley. It's 68"  50@28. Some may say this bow is too long for my 27" draw but I think the target will disagree. Man this bow was smooth! I didn't want to put it down. Dirty Bob was starting to give me dirty looks after about a dozen arrows.

And did it ever fit into my hand. Rob I'm loving that locator and I'm glad thats what my bow will have.

Dirty Bob shot this bow quite impressive. First day with it and he was smashing bulls at 10 yards. Now mind you he hasn't shot a trad bow since he was a kid. You would have thought he's been shooting for a year or so.

Bunnies at GORH better look out!!!!!    :scared:

Congrats Bob on an awesome bow. You did good.

And i was left out to just drink beer because im a lefty.If that bow would have been 5 lb heaver i think leatherneck might have stolen that bow.Keep your eyes out Dirty Bob  :p

I might steal it anyhow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We had another decent day of no rain today so, I took the "Redman" out to work on my form a little. Rob had noticed that I was leaning into my shots so, I wanted to practice and try and break that habit. I had a shoulder injury when I was deployed and I think that is what's causing me to lean in a little. The "Redman" is easier to practice with as it is only 45# @ my 29" draw. I shot at about 10yds just keep it simple.
 (http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/TradNut/101_0345.jpg)

QuoteOriginally posted by leatherneck:
[QB]

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
[qb] hmmm, i think this was an adirondack?  really loooong fadeouts ...

  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/ab11.jpg)


Thats a sweet looki ng bow Rob.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wannabe1:
We had another decent day of no rain today so, I took the "Redman" out to work on my form a little. Rob had noticed that I was leaning into my shots so, I wanted to practice and try and break that habit. I had a shoulder injury when I was deployed and I think that is what's causing me to lean in a little. The "Redman" is easier to practice with as it is only 45# @ my 29" draw. I shot at about 10yds just keep it simple.
  (http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/TradNut/101_0345.jpg)

real good "inline" form, tw.

QuoteOriginally posted by longbowben:
 (http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj10/longbowben/DSC06795.jpg)

real nice form, ben.

QuoteOriginally posted by WESTBROOK:
What a great thread this has been! Lots of great info and Purdy bows!

  (http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h121/mandoman_2006/DSC01974.jpg)

just a real purty winter's day picture!

Nice form TW... i have the problem of leaning into my shots. A combination of being blind in one eye , a previously crushed shoulder and too much # as a youngster. I remedied it with reinforcing proper head position ... draw to my anchor...not move my anchor to my hand !
Ain't nuthin better than seeing a well drawn Redman ! Good stuff ...

Great pics fella's !

Rob/Ben, thanks for the comments. Ben, I think I might have been doing the same. I mean, moving my anchor to my hand. I also noticed that I am utilizing my back muscles more when I practiced today. Rob brought that point up on a PM to me a few days ago.

You guys are not helping the bow disease with all this Hill bow talk.  Now I find myself reading Hunting the Hard Way and Hitting 'Em Like Howard Hill again.  It looks like Craig has a stock bow that's just about perfect.  Hmmm...    :banghead:

Rob,that adirondack looks alot like an abbott with those long fades.

QuoteOriginally posted by chubber:
Rob,that adirondack looks alot like an abbott with those long fades.

yup, i agree, that's an abbott.  thanx!

Molson...just do it ! Then you can sit up the back of the bus with the rest of us bad boys!
Which bow are looking at ?

I'm looking at that 66" 55@26 Halfbreed with the Ebony Riser and black glass.  Of course the 66" 55@27 Halfbreed with Chechen Riser and clear glass wouldn't be bad either!

All this talk and no help from Rob and Mudd FORCED me to order a bow from HH,I made a new model a RED CHEETAH, 66", 56# @28",Basically a Hill Cheetah but instesd of Bamboo I got Yew cores with slight string follow .There is something about Yew.

Wannabe:  Nothing wrong with leaning into the shot a little.  Take a look at pix of Howard Hill shooting.  He leaned in.  Straight up stance is more of a target stance.  Will lengthen your draw length, but there's nothing particularly magical about it. Do what works for you.   :thumbsup:

Jerry, it's funny you should say that as I was just looking at one of my HH catalogs, and there is a 3 step draw sequence that Howard goes through. In the sequence, he looks like he is leaning a lot into the shot.

With that being said, I am not utilizing the full weight of my bow at my 29" draw, if I'm not pulling it to 29". It's something I am working to fix.

i've read that howard leaned into the bow because he knowingly shot too short an arrow.  he even wrote about that.  looking at his height, his overall physique, the length of his arms and width of his shoulders, he could/should have been shooting 29" at the minimum, maybe more.  

leaning in shortens the draw length and makes it harder to use the back muscles.

not leaning into the bow is not a 'straight up target stance'.  none of this has anything to do with 'target archery'.  i played the target game for over 20 years - that and bowhunting are two different animals.   ;)    

but it is very true - do whatever works best for you as long as you have consistent good accuracy.

QuoteOriginally posted by Molson:
I'm looking at that 66" 55@26 Halfbreed with the Ebony Riser and black glass.  Of course the 66" 55@27 Halfbreed with Chechen Riser and clear glass wouldn't be bad either! [/QUOTE


I'm here to tell you,this bow is gorgeous!!!(66" 55@27) Jason sent it to me to try out cause I wanted to try a Hill bow. The yew on this bow was stunning. It just did not have the specs I wanted or it would not have gone back. I only shot about a dozen arrows through it and sent it back. Then I called in my order. You wont go wrong with this bow if it's one you want.

Rob, your advice is good and it worked for me. By focusing more on my form, I was able to utilize the back muscles better and my draw seemed smoother. Don't know if that makes sense but, that's what it felt like to me.

Before, I think I was using the arm muscles more, and this was affecting my shoulder problem. Using the back muscles, made it easier to get to my full draw length.

Maybe for the Shooters forum or off topic but as we are on the here , there is a BIG difference between leaning the body into a shot and leaning the head forward to meet the anchor... there is a bunch of Hill pics showing him NOT overtly leaning forward ...

I don't buy the 'upright is target form' argument ... I swing draw and if i need to lean into a shot it is done from the waist , that way everything stays aligned and lets me , albeit unconsciously, still use my back muscles.

Steve, that bow sounds gorgeous !

More imortantly...my bows got shipped today !

Robin Hood #13 will be making his Australian debut here on Tradgang at some stage over the coming weeks. To ensure he isn't lonely, he is bringing a friend with similiar specs ... T/D Mr Rhino ...
As a welcoming committee , there are a bunch of newly fletched douglas fir, tapered cedars and 2016's waiting their arrival ...

First stop on the Aussie tour will be my favourite stumping/roving mountain ...
Question is ... do i make myself one of Mudd's hats ?


Stay Tuned

My Robin Hood Dual Shelf Bow.

1st picture is Righty and 2nd is Lefty. Oh, the Hat was made by Roy "Mudd" Williams. I am officially one of his Merry Men.

Matt "Little John Raging Water" Hamilton

 (http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac138/hemdell/A%20Dual%20Shelf%20Robin%20Hood/CIMG6656.jpg)   (http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac138/hemdell/A%20Dual%20Shelf%20Robin%20Hood/CIMG6658.jpg)

Nice form, how is the lefty shooting going?

I only shot 3 arrows lefty today and 6 righty. No time, man, no time.

I really hope to get some serious left handed practice in this weekend.

Interesting comment. Shooting lefty really makes me think about form and focus.

I think it is really going to help my right side the most.

Matt

Oooh, Ben, you lucky fellow! I'm looking forward to seeing the photos! And yes, I think you do need a hat!

QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
[QB] More imortantly...my bows got shipped today !

You lucky dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just looked back on a pic from earlier in the year and I lean a little in my shots. My back elbow could stand to be a touch lower but I'm bending at the waste. I would also have to take into consideration that I'm just drawing for a photo and not a shot so I'm kinda looking at the ground. I dont know,seems to work for me.Critique?

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd312/sargeyriley/007-5.jpg)

I got the HH bug a few years ago, finally ordered a 70" Wesley Special back in Dec. of '07.

I shot it "ok" but I shoot my selfbow better, so it has spent the last 2+ years hanging on the bow rack.

Nice bows, just never quite got the hang of 'em.

I am officially asking permission to blame you guys when my wife questions what is in the "big box" that will arrive in a few weeks.  :jumper:    :laughing:    :laughing:

Ya, I'm thinking they may need to start a forum for the "Wives of Hill Fans". That way they have a place to console each other and plot against us!   :D

QuoteOriginally posted by leatherneck:
Just looked back on a pic from earlier in the year and I lean a little in my shots. My back elbow could stand to be a touch lower but I'm bending at the waste. I would also have to take into consideration that I'm just drawing for a photo and not a shot so I'm kinda looking at the ground. I dont know,seems to work for me.Critique?

  (http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd312/sargeyriley/007-5.jpg)

I never had problems shooting, and then for some dumb reason, I started worrying about my elbow being a little high to the point I gave myself a nice case of TP. As long as it's not up and out, and you're pulling with back tension, don't worry about it.  It might just be the way you shoot do to your body.

I will offer this Critique....  If you're killing things and you're happy, just shoot the bow!    :)

Howards form was terrible according to others...nuff said!

Hill form is doing all the same wrong things that Hill did and reducing down to match the individuals size and strength.  That quartering, goose necking, stick the butt out thing is not part of the form.  Actually Hill said that Swineheart was a better size for shooting longbows than he was. Hill perhaps reduced his draw some intentionally, sometimes he even drew less than 27", unintentionally.  As stated, Hill thought a 27" arrow was the best length arrow. Good thing his bow forgave him, for all that bad form.  Those bad form things did seem to work, for him and me.

it's been said oodles of times before and worth re-iterating - as long as you can consistently hit what yer aiming at, yer shooting form is just fine, whatever it is.

This bug is really contagious!   :eek:

(I just ordered an in-stock 68" Half Breed 55#@28" backset / yew on back & belly / bamboo core lams / walnut riser w/ laced elk hide)    :rolleyes:

QuoteOriginally posted by Kapellmeister:
This bug is really contagious!    :eek:  

(I just ordered an in-stock 68" Half Breed 55#@28" backset / yew on back & belly / bamboo core lams / walnut riser w/ laced elk hide)     :rolleyes:  

oooooooo, dat sounds nice!

Pics when it arrives please!   :D    :thumbsup:

Rob D. "it's been said oodles of times before and worth re-iterating - as long as you can consistently hit what yer aiming at, yer shooting form is just fine, whatever it is."

Rob:  That's the point I was trying to make. When I commented on leaning in, I was thinking more a slight tilt of the head than the body, but advice is the same regardless.  If it works, don't worry about it.

kapellmeister-

We need pics when it arrives?

Darren

Someone tried to sell me an old Tembo a while back that had a four pin sight on it, the side bracket kind. I was pretty certain those filled holes would drive me crazy, after i threw the sight away.  Some things are anathema.  While I don't care how anyone shoots their Hills, except one with a sight on it just brings a sarcastic devil out of me. An expert, with three whole years of compound experience, he never even tried to shoot it without the sights, nor could he get it back.

QuoteSomeone tried to sell me an old Tembo a while back that had a four pin sight on it  

:laughing:    :laughing:    :laughing:

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
Someone tried to sell me an old Tembo a while back that had a four pin sight on it, the side bracket kind. ...

that's like a harley with training wheels.    :eek:    :D