Post by: the Ferret on March 02, 2005, 03:28:00 PM
(1) material (osage, hickory, etc)
(2) ntn length
(3) handle design (rigid, semi bend, bend)
(4) handle length
(5) fade length
(6) limb design (full width to mid, past mid or straight taper from fade)
(7) limb width at fade
(8) Limb length (even length or asymetrical)
(9)Belly type (flat, slightly rounded, deep core)
(10) backing (none, sinew,rawhide,snakeskin etc)
(11)rest type (none, glued leather, bone, floppy etc)
(12)overlays (yes, no, material)
(13)profile (straight, reflex, static curve etc)
(14)finish (tung oil, tru oil, french polish, massey, thunderbird spar urethane etc)
(15)handle covering (none, leather, laced, wrapped etc)
(16) string type and material (endless,flemish, dacron, FF etc)
lets hear your ideas :readit:
Post by: Traxx on March 02, 2005, 03:43:00 PM
Post by: Jeremy on March 02, 2005, 03:45:00 PM
2. 66" ntn
3. rigid
4. 4"
5. 2" fades
6. full width to mid limb
7. 1.25"
8. asymmetrical
9. slightly rounded
10. the boo
11. glued leather or floppy
12. walnut tip overlays
13. set back in the handle, little bit o deflex, then reflex out to semi-static curves (say 6") - look at one of Jaap's bows
14. massey
15. leather
16. flemish (nothing else looks good on a bow) FF
This is the bow I've had in my mind's eye for the last 6 months, and what I've been working up to with my last couple wood lam bows.
Post by: tom sawyer on March 02, 2005, 03:48:00 PM
A bow having a good combination of longevity and performance. Much like my best bow.
Post by: Pat B on March 02, 2005, 03:51:00 PM
Osage, 62"-66"T/T, bulbous handle,rigid to simi-bending,4" handle, 1 1/2"-2" fades,either straight taper or full out to 6" then taper to 3/8"tips,1 3/8"-1 1/2" at fades,asymetrical (but lately I've been trying symetrical, slightly rounded belly, air backing, no arrow rest or small glued leather rest,usually overlays(bone,antler,hardwood),Tru-Oil, straight or slightly reflexed(to start with),Rattan wrap or leather handle wrap, and a B-50 Flemish string.
Just a good old stick bow!!! Pat
ps. I use the same bow for everything!
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 02, 2005, 04:00:00 PM
64"NTN
Rigid
4"
2 3/4"
Full to mid limb
1.25
Even limb length
Rounded belly
No backing
Glued on wood rest
Osage burl tip overlays
Straight limb with slight natural reflex
Massey finish
Leather handle
Flemish DF-97 string
I described my personal hunting bow. I depend on this one bow. I have one BBO and a splinter bow but only shoot the one described above.
It is the middle one in the picture at my webshots page.
http://community.webshots.com/album/99778482aRQTdN
Post by: gordonf on March 02, 2005, 04:01:00 PM
Post by: Homan on March 02, 2005, 04:23:00 PM
(1) ipe for indestructibility
(2) 66"
(3) semi bendy handle
(4) 4" handle
(5) 2" fades
(6) straight taper from fade
(7) 1" wide at fade
(8) even length limbs
(9) slightly rounded belly
(10) no backing (requires a good piece of ipe)
(11) glued leather rest
(12) no overlays
(13) profile is straight
(14) finish is tru oil
(15) handle covering is leather
(16) string type is dyna 97
If wood backings are allowed, I'd put a piece of hickory on the back and make life easier for myself finding the right piece of ipe. I've found this to be an accurate and durable design.
Post by: tom sawyer on March 02, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
Post by: John Scifres on March 02, 2005, 04:39:00 PM
(2) 66" NTN (I have a 27" draw)
(3) handle design: rigid
(4) handle length: 3.5"
(5) fade length: 1.5"
(6) limb design: full width to 8" past fades - approx 1/3 of working limb
(7) limb width at fade: 1.5"
(8) Limb length: top limb is 1.5" longer than bottom
(9)Belly type: rounded flat belly
(10) backing: air
(11)rest type: floppy
(12)overlays: no
(13)profile: straight, turned tips
(14)finish: polyurethane
(15)handle covering: leather wrapped
(16) string type: B-50 flemish
Post by: the Ferret on March 02, 2005, 04:44:00 PM
Post by: Dano on March 02, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
(2) 60" ntn (26" draw)
(3) handle design, rigid
(4) handle length, 4"
(5) fade length, 2"
(6) limb design full width to mid
(7) limb width at fade, 1 1/4"
(8) Limb length, even length
(9) Belly type, slightly rounded
(10) backing, Snakeskin
(11)rest type, glued leather
(12)overlays, yes, hardwood
(13)profile, reflex
(14)finish, thunderbird
(15)handle covering, leather
(16)string type and material, flemish, FF
Post by: Rangeball on March 02, 2005, 04:52:00 PM
Post by: tom sawyer on March 02, 2005, 05:04:00 PM
OK not really. Its Brazilian walnut or something like that. Tropical hardwood.
Post by: wingnut on March 02, 2005, 05:08:00 PM
(2) ntn length = 64'
(3) handle design = rigid
(4) handle length = 4"
(5) fade length = 1.5"
(6) limb design = full width to mid
(7) limb width at fade = 1 3/8
(8) Limb length = even length
(9) Belly type = slightly rounded
(10) backing = snakeskin
(11)rest type = glued leather
(12)overlays = yes, buff horn
(13)profile = reflex
(14)finish = Catalysized Varnish
(15)handle covering = leather, laced
(16) string type and material =flemish, FF
About 55 lbs.
Mike
Post by: buffalobillpatrick on March 02, 2005, 05:19:00 PM
Post by: Jeff Strubberg on March 02, 2005, 05:25:00 PM
(2)64" NTN
(3)Rigid handle
(4)Handle length 4"
(5)Fade length 2"
(6)1 3/8" limb width at fade
(7)full width for 10", then a straigh taper to a 3/8" nock
(8)limb length=even
(9)belly type= as flat as possible
(10)backing=none
(11)rest type=glued leather
(12)overlays=none
(14)finish=spray poly
(15)handle covering=leather wrap
(16)string type and material= B50 flemish
55-60 lbs @29"
Post by: tom sawyer on March 02, 2005, 05:27:00 PM
Post by: Ironfist_Canada on March 02, 2005, 05:39:00 PM
1. Hop Hornbeam
2. 68 NTN
3 Rigid Handle
4 5 inch
5 1 and 1/2 inches
6 Full to mid then tapering
7 1 and 3/4 inches wide
8 even
9 Flat and slightly rounded
10 No Backing
11 Cut in slightly with leather build up
12 No Overlays
13 Reflexed 3 inches from handle to tips.
14 Tru Oil
15 Leather
16 Flemish B50 dacron.
# 45 @ 27
Post by: '46 on March 02, 2005, 05:56:00 PM
(2) 66" NTN
(3) handle design: rigid
(4) handle length: 4"
(5) fade length: 1.5"
(6) limb design: full width to 8" past fades 1/3 of working limb
(7) limb width at fade: 1.5"
(8) Limb length: Equal
(9)Belly type: rounded flat belly
(10) backing: none
(11)rest type: floppy
(12)overlays: no
(13)profile: straight, slightly turned tips
(14)finish: Massey
(15)handle covering: leather wrap
(16) string type: B-50 flemish
55#@27"
Post by: Jason Jelinek on March 02, 2005, 06:12:00 PM
(1) material: osage
(2) 72" ntn
(3) handle design: semi bend
(4) handle length: 4"
(5) fade length: 2"
(6) limb design: convex width taper
(7) limb width at fade/tip: 1 & 1/8" to 3/8" wide tips
(8) Limb Length: slightly asymetrical
(9) Belly type: slightly rounded
(10) Backing: none
(11) rest type: none
(12) overlays: antler nocks or overlays
(13) profile: straight
(14) finish: tru oil
(15) handle covering: leather
(16) string type: flemish FF
Basically an ELB with a very slightly raised handle (maybe 1/2" thicker). I'm thinking 60# @ 30" draw.
Jason
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 02, 2005, 06:34:00 PM
Post by: Hackbow on March 02, 2005, 06:58:00 PM
(1) material - osage
(2) 61" NTN (I have a 28-1/4+" draw)
(3) handle design: rigid
(4) handle length: 3.5"
(5) fade length: 1.25"
(6) limb design: full width to 9" past fades - approx 1/3 of working limb
(7) limb width at fade: 1.5"
(8) Limb length: top limb is 1" longer than bottom
(9)Belly type: rounded flat belly
(10) backing: air
(11)rest type: partial cut-in shelf and glued leather
(12)overlays: no
(13)profile: straight, turned tips
(14)finish: Tru-Oil
(15)handle covering: leather wrapped
(16) string type: B-50 flemish
This is just a little different than what I'm using now. I would go up in wt. from 55 to 63-65#. Another notable design feature would be having the smallest nocks possible to hold the string on.
Post by: Marc on March 02, 2005, 07:32:00 PM
2. 62" N to N
3. Rigid
4. 4"
5. 1 1/2"
6. 5 degree taper to mid limb then straight taper to tips
7. 1 3/4"
8. Equal length
9. Flat
10. None
11. Leather
12. Horn or tropical hardwoods
13. Deflex handle, reflexed limbs and recurved
14. Tung oil, shellac and paste wax.
15. Leather
16. Endless FF
Draw weight. 55# ~ 60# @ 28"
Post by: the Ferret on March 02, 2005, 07:34:00 PM
Post by: Dano on March 02, 2005, 07:49:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on March 02, 2005, 08:07:00 PM
osage
62" ntn
semi bendy handled
4" handle
no real fades, handle blends into limb
limb width 1 1/8" carried to just past mid limb tapering to 1/2" tips
equal length limbs
mostly flat but slightly rounded belly
1 layer sinew backed
elkhide floppy rest
no overlays
flat profile with slight flip at tips
true oil and automotive paste wax
elkhide handle wrap
dacron B50 Flemish
Post by: Dano on March 02, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
Post by: AZStickman on March 02, 2005, 08:25:00 PM
(2) ntn length 64"
(3) handle design (rigid, Bulbous)
(4) handle length 4"
(5) fade length 1 1/2" flowing into limbs
(6) limb design (1 1/8" to 1 3/8" wide at fades tapering in 1/8" at mid limb, and a straight taper from there to 1/4" nocks)
(7) limb width at fade ( See #6 :) )
(8) Limb length (even length )
(9)Belly type ( slightly rounded)
(10) backing (None or sinew topped with rawhide or snakeskin)
(11)rest type (none)
(12)overlays (yes, Horn )
(13)profile ( static curve )
(14)finish (tung oil,or Massey)
(15)handle covering (I haven't done one yet but a wrap JD style is the classiest handle covering going )
(16) string type and material (flemish, dacron, )
(17) 60-70#
Post by: tom sawyer on March 02, 2005, 09:04:00 PM
I thought about a sinewed bow Mickey. That would make it indestructible. But also prone to change with humidity.
Post by: George Tsoukalas on March 02, 2005, 09:28:00 PM
(2) ntn length (BL=66 ntn; osage=65 ntn)
(3) handle design (rigid)
(4) handle length (7.5 in)
(5) fade length(bottom=1 in; tope =2.5 in or so)
(6) limb design (full width to past mid )
(7) limb width at fade (osage-1.5; BL= 1.75)
(8) Limb length (even length)
(9)Belly type (flat-slightly rounded)
(10) backing (none)
(11)rest type (glued leather)
(12)overlays (no)
(13)profile (straight- reflex tips)
(14)finish ( tru oil,)
(15)handle covering (leather)
(16) string type and material (flemish, dacron)
Jawge
Post by: DCM on March 02, 2005, 09:44:00 PM
Post by: Timo on March 02, 2005, 09:49:00 PM
Good thread.
Post by: Hackbow on March 02, 2005, 09:51:00 PM
With regard to the 1/3 vs 1/2 limb width tapering, I just follow Scifres as he's been my teacher in most of this (a fact I'm sure he'd rather keep quiet). The bow he made for me is the sweetest shooter I've ever experienced and I really like the look of a thinner width and thicker profile. Sort of a cross between flatbow and ELB. I haven't done enough experimenting to know what is good, better or best. I just know what I like from what I've shot or seen of others' work.
Post by: chri5917 on March 02, 2005, 10:10:00 PM
ONE OF ERIC'S!
Wow, them's purty!
Be it that I've never actually shot a self bow (except the famous green tree branch strung with kite string) I guess I'm probably not what some would call "knowledgeable" :) , but wow, those things are awesome. My wife's going to wake up tonight to me mumbling, "I didn't know osage could be so good looking," in my sleep. Hmmmm... Hope she realizes Osage isn't a girl...
Anywho, not to say that the rest of you don't make drop dead gorgeous bows, but those pictures of Erics really took me back.
Great work!
Post by: horseapple on March 02, 2005, 10:39:00 PM
2-(63"ntn 27.5" draw)
3-(stiff handle)
4-(4"handle)
5-(1.75" flares)
6-(even length limbs)
7-(1-3/8" with straight taper to .5" tips)
8-(slight radiused belly)
9-(rest, glued on tapered leather)
10-(overlays, water buffalo)
11-(slight reflex but don't mind 1" set)
12-(finish, catalysed varnish)
13-(handle, skived leather wrap)
14-(string, 14 strand FF with 8 strands of B-50 in loops
You guys have got me pumped to go out and lay one up:)
Joe Don
Post by: John Scifres on March 02, 2005, 10:43:00 PM
All that being said, my go to bow is my sinew backed static. I love it. My second favorite is my elk bow made like I described above. Except it's 65# and I can't shoot that much weight unless I work myself up to it over several months. Third favorite is a dead on Torges design straight from his book and about 55#. One of my alltime favorites that I have made was a skinny, 59" working handled working recurve out of osage. I traded it away. I'm itching to make myself one some time. I even have the piece of wood picked out for it. I may put sinew on it. The first one didn't have it.
Post by: tom sawyer on March 02, 2005, 10:48:00 PM
I thought you were reading out of HOB till you got to them even limbs. But I won't go there.
Post by: tom sawyer on March 02, 2005, 10:51:00 PM
Post by: GeneJockey on March 02, 2005, 11:05:00 PM
(1) material: Osage - like the Oklahoma stuff I got from Mike Hames.
(2) ntn length: 65-66" (for 29" draw)
(3) handle design: rigid
(4) handle length: 4"
(5) fade length: 2"
(6) limb design: full to mid
(7) limb width at fade: 1 1/2 or so.
(8) Limb length: Even - Mims is no help tillering asymmetricals! ;)
(9)Belly type: slightly rounded
(10) backing: none
(11)rest type: glued leather
(12)overlays: none
(13)profile: straight
(14)finish: Tru-oil
(15)handle covering: leather
(16) string type and material: Flemish DF97
Post by: horseapple on March 02, 2005, 11:09:00 PM
!["[tunglaff]"]("graemlins/tunglaff.gif" "\"\"")
Post by: the Ferret on March 02, 2005, 11:25:00 PM
Most of the bows I see listed that carry their width to 1/3 or even mid limb are wider than my favorite design which carries a narrower width but further out the limbs, which allows the limbs to be a little thicker which I relate to durability. Yet with the bend coming into the handle I get most of the wood working. I know that the layer of sinew I prefer can cause problems in moisture laden conditions but the rest of the time helps the bow maintain it's profile much better. Over the long run I see that as maintaining performance rather than giving up cast to performance robbing follow.
Jawge I think you mean a 7 1/2" non bending section and not a 7 1/2" handle plus a 1" fade and a 2 1/2" fade right?
I think we are definitly seeing some trends here that say something when experience bowyers when asked to pick a design they would have to live with for a long period of time.
The use of overlays suprises me when it is an added glued on item that could come off, and adds weight to the limb tip. Ok you tip overlay guys..what does the tip overlay do for you or is it strictly cosmetic? (since osage doesn't need reinforcement at the tip)
Post by: Mark Baker on March 02, 2005, 11:34:00 PM
You guys do a lot more measuring than me! :D
I prefer osage, 64 inches nock to nock, a bulbous handle about 4 inches I guess, fades flow to the limbs which are semi rounded....width no more than 11/2 wide....about a third or so, tapering down to half inch tips. I like 65 to 70 pounds, unbacked, rattan grip and floppy rest, maybe tip overlays, but not required.
Sure is a lot of us in the same "length" category! I tend to have a sloppy release at times, and 64 inches works without being too long for me.
Post by: Jeff Strubberg on March 02, 2005, 11:35:00 PM
I wouldn't have chosen osage or foregone a backing if it weren't for the local humidity. Of course, once osage was chosen, it affected about half of the design parameters.....
Post by: horseapple on March 02, 2005, 11:39:00 PM
Joe Don
Post by: trashwood on March 03, 2005, 12:20:00 AM
rusty
Post by: Madpigslayer on March 03, 2005, 12:23:00 AM
since I aint no bowyer, my answer is..."anything that Dean makes" but at the expence of being a cop out...dims unknown, but in MY climate, hickory lightly backed with sinew would be a dragon slayer. BIG DRAGONS too. I would prolly steal the dims from one of you guys. but the climate would make me right. dryer than a popcorn fart.
which begs the question...why not a straight taper from fade to tip??? with my popcorn fart dry sinew backed hickory at ohhhhh...say....68" of pigslaying power?
(seriously, I always wonder why the straight taper isnt done more. I mean really...why???)
Post by: clintopher on March 03, 2005, 07:25:00 AM
If durability is an issue, why not a horn bow? Too much PITA to make?
Clint
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 08:07:00 AM
Yes Jeff and Madpig et al...climatic conditions are a consideration as are availability of certain woods in certain areas. Notice 3 of the guys who do not have access to osage chose elm, ipe and vine maple...locally available woods to them
Clintopher..when I started this thread I originally said designing the ultimate "selfbow", which technically would have left out all backings so I changed it to "wooden bow" to allow hickory and boo backings, but for the most part anything added to a bow ie: glued on or together is another potential place a bow can fail. A sinew backing can get wet and release, boo backings and such have a history of failure beyond the norm for an air backed piece of good wood in a single growth ring back and glue lines are another typical place of failure. Most bowyers choosing a design that they have to live with over a period of years are going to choose the simplest design which happens to be the most durable, an unbacked bow. I am a little suprised at the lack of rawhide backings mentioned.
I'm trying to tally this up but some of you have answered kind of wishy washy like 62-66" or "shortish rigid handle" or "leather glue up or floppy" or "2 1/2-3" fades". When answering pick a length and pick a rest material please.
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 08:15:00 AM
Madpig the straight taper from fades is a very attractive design, Bro Randy's favorite and the BL I just made for DCM is of that design. But I think John Scifres explained his reason fairly well on page 2? that carrying the width for 1/3 of the limb gives more working wood where you need it to avoid set and lets the rest of the limb be light for performance.
Post by: Eric Krewson on March 03, 2005, 08:37:00 AM
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 09:17:00 AM
Osage, 64" ntn, rigid 4" handle, 1 1/2" fades, full width for 1/3 of the working limb length then tapering to the tip, even length limbs, slightly rounded belly, unbacked, with a leather glued up rest and some kind of bone overlays on the tips. It would have a more or less straight profile, be sealed with true-oil,have a leather handle covering and a flemish string. String material was interestingly split evenly between dacron and a ff type material.
Not a bad design at all fellas
I'm going to have to study this 1/3 of the limb length before tapering, overlays and high performance strings.
Lots of areas for discussion here.
Post by: Bowjunkie on March 03, 2005, 09:23:00 AM
Seriously, I'd slightly overbuild it and keep it as simple as possible so, hopefully, nothing bad would happen to it. I'd build a bow almost exactly like I did last year to hunt with.
I would have chosen a BBO, but I've had more splinters raise on them than on selfbows.
(1) dense, straight-grained, thick-ringed osage
(2) 66" for my 28"
(3) rigid handle
(4) handle length 4"
(5) 1 1/2" flares
(6) convex taper from the flares to the nocks
(7) 1 3/8" at its widest
(8) asymetrical limbs
(9) nicely radiused/rounded belly
(10) no backing
(11) built up leather rest
(12) no overlays
(13) straight standing after break-in
(14) Fullerplast catalyzed varnish
(15) skived deer leather handle and arrow plate
(16) 15 strand, 3 bundle B-50 flemish string
Where's the draw weight question? It's got a bearing on some of our other design characterisitcs, no?
I'd make it about 65# @ 28".
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Jeff_Durnell/Rose_Lioness/Lioness2.jpg)
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 09:34:00 AM
out of 21 bow designs (regardless of draw weight)...17 were between 62" & 66" in length (14 of those between 64&66), 16 were osage, 16 had rigid 4" handles 14 had fades between 1 1/2 and 2" long,17 had slightly rounded bellies,17 had no backings,17 had leather wrapped handles, 16 had even length limbs,20 used a flemish string, 12 had a straight limb profile. Pretty unanimous stuff
BTW it looks as though your design is right in line with the rest except for the asym limbs and the convex limb from fade to tip. Could you please explain how you lay out the convex limb and what you think it gains you?
Post by: John Scifres on March 03, 2005, 09:36:00 AM
I was at Lowes yesterday and tried to find a red oak that would make a bow. No dice this time but I'm gonna give it a shot every time I'm there.
Pig, I like the straight taper too but only on really long, skinny bows like the one I'm eventually gonna send you :)
Post by: DCM on March 03, 2005, 09:38:00 AM
(1) material (osage, hickory, etc)
Osage
(2) ntn length
67" NTN for 29" draw. Since Mickey is all anal about everybody being specific 65" for 28, 63" for 27".
(3) handle design (rigid, semi bend, bend)
stiff
(4) handle length
4"
(5) fade length
3" to 5" of width taper with 1" to 2" left not working. 2" for Mickey's stats.
(6) limb design (full width to mid, past mid or straight taper from fade)
taper to full width at 1/3rd limb then taper back down to 1/2" nocks
(7) limb width at fade
1 3/8" at full width for 55#
(8) Limb length (even length or asymetrical)
slight asym with lower being no more than 1" shorter
(9)Belly type (flat, slightly rounded, deep core)
slightly rounded
(10) backing (none, sinew,rawhide,snakeskin etc)
none
(11)rest type (none, glued leather, bone, floppy etc)
glued leather
(12)overlays (yes, no, material)
no
(13)profile (straight, reflex, static curve etc)
straight to 1/2" of string follow
(14)finish (tung oil, tru oil, french polish, massey, thunderbird spar urethane etc)
massey
(15)handle covering (none, leather, laced, wrapped etc)
leather like laced but overlap glued, not ribbon wrapped.
(16) string type and material (endless,flemish, dacron, FF etc)
Flemish FF 14 strand with double serving of 50# Spiderwire braided fishing strang
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 09:46:00 AM
Post by: Dano on March 03, 2005, 09:46:00 AM
Post by: tom sawyer on March 03, 2005, 10:14:00 AM
Post by: Torsten on March 03, 2005, 10:27:00 AM
I have some GOOD juniper staves in my garage. I need to admit that I am missing an added value for myself gained to make someting definitely new and unseen compared to my own recurve weapons here. After more than 50000 years our bows are really much what they have ever been. Space age materials might make a difference, a little....
Keep your old ideals and have happy hunting
Post by: kyle on March 03, 2005, 10:41:00 AM
Kyle
Post by: DCM on March 03, 2005, 10:41:00 AM
I don't ever build two bows azacky the same but this pic is as close as I have on handle.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/bcb1.JPG
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/bcb2.JPG
Post by: Tom Leemans on March 03, 2005, 10:54:00 AM
(1) Osage with possibly a locust core
(2) 64" NTN
(3) Rigid (prolly)
(4) 4" bulbous handle
(5) 2" fades
(6) Full width to mid limb taper to 1/2" nocks
(7) 1-1/4" wide at fade
(8) Asymetrical (top limb 1-1/2" longer
(9) Semi rounded belly
(10) Bamboo backed
(11) Floppy arrarest
(12) Cow horn overlays
(13) Reflex/Deflex
(14) Spar Urethane finish
(15) Leather wrapped or laced handle (depending on mood)
(16) Flemish string (I like 450+)
Selfbow:
Same basic specs except the limbs may be a bit wider and be, most likely, reflex only. I'd still put cow horn overlays on it for durability. If sinew didn't make this a "composite", I'd back it with sinew (also for durabilty).
and they'd both be around 55#. No more than 60#.
Post by: tom sawyer on March 03, 2005, 11:00:00 AM
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 11:23:00 AM
Post by: tom sawyer on March 03, 2005, 11:36:00 AM
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 11:40:00 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by DCM:
[QB] Very subtle and long width taper Lennie. With good osage you don't really need "fades" per se. If it's 7/8" at the arrow pass you ain't got far to go to get 1 3/8" max width.
David exactly..in the design I listed going from a 7/8" arrow pass to a 1 1/8" max limb width, there is really no room for a fade it's more a subtle blending from handle to limb. Looks almost like a D bow where the handle and limb are same width, but it's not.
Something not mentioned was handle depth and on the rigid handles I assume most are going for a 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" depth whereas on mine it is more like 3/4"-7/8" depth. Again dropping from a 3/4" depth to a 5/8" limb thickness does not leave any room for a dip, but again a subtle blending of handle and limb.
Post by: tom sawyer on March 03, 2005, 12:22:00 PM
I'm going more to try and focus more on bendy handle bows myself. Something I've done little of to date.
Post by: Jim Hamm on March 03, 2005, 12:39:00 PM
Osage, for durability and resistance to moisture.
70-72" for 29" draw for durability and accuracy.
Narrow limbs, rigid handle, and tiny tips for speed and reducing hand shock.
Flat belly for reduced string follow.
B-50 or if we're gonna be hardcore, linen.
Paraffin finish for max moisture protection.
This is essentially the type of bow I've been using for years, for everything from elk on down. It's the most durable, accurate, forgiving, and lethal, at least for me and the way I hunt....
Jim
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 12:51:00 PM
Lennie, I like minimalist equipment, light weight and simple and that design lets me use the least amount of wood unless I went to a straight D bow.It also lets me get away with a shorter piece of wood because 8" is not being used up in handle and fades. The semi bendy handle shoots a little smoother than a straight D. Because it is so narrow, the sinew helps it maintain it's side profile which is basically flat with a little flip at the tips,otherwise it would follow the string at least in the first 1/3 of the limb where Scifres et al are leaving a little extra wood to prevent just that.
Post by: trashwood on March 03, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
for my 27" draw i'd like a 50#er
bodark
60" ntn
stave from a 12" diameter stove pipe.
1/2" nocks no overlays
1&3/8" wide tapering last 1/3 of limb to nocks.
tuck the handle area in 1/4" to 1&1/8"
tiller with the handle working but not circular.
not fades really and no step upto the handle. one smooth (more or less) taper from tip to center of bow like some of the east coast bows
i would expect (and accept) 1" to 1&1/2" of set. I don't want much reflex if bow is to go for 5 yrs hard shooting and hunting.
good ratio on the rings. stave from the side of log closest to the heart. I like to have a leggy tree with a 72" run or longer. I want to stay as far away from the butt and top as I can. 60" right out of the middle. top of log gets too tension-y and butt of log get to comprasion-y
skinny tips give ya more speed and less hand shock but as less reliable over all. stiff handle is sweeter shooter but requivers working less limb more and a wider limb. ya are more likely to work a week spot in a shorter wider working limb. work more of narrower limb and ya can likely get around weak spots or at leat have fewer of them since ya got a narrower shorter bow.
the thing I want first and for most out of a self bow I gotta shoot for five yrs as my only bow is reliability. I'd have to go with the Indian bows. give up a little speed and sweetness for a bow that would be there with what it's got when I need it. it want be a dog ort a fireball. solid as a rock
rusty
Post by: trashwood on March 03, 2005, 01:41:00 PM
I have made a couple of the Hamm bows and they do have a lot to say for themselves......except they are loooonnnnnggggg! but great shooters.
the bos that I have whip tiller were roman candles. went like a fire ball for a while but petered out. maybe i did it wrong.
rusty
Post by: Jim Hamm on March 03, 2005, 01:44:00 PM
I generally make overly long bows, in the 70-74" range. I whip tiller them a bit to make up for all the moving mass in such a long limb. That way, I get the advantage of the length - accurate and forgiving - without the handshock and reduced speed of a really long working limb.
Rusty
Yeah, tips too tiny would be prone to damage when you fall down (which I do pretty regularly) or the tip accidentally hits a branch or the ground during a shot. I'd make pretty robust tips if that was my only bow for five years....
Excellent info in this thread. The overall bowmaking skill level now is just amazing compared to even ten years ago.
Much to learn....
Jim
Post by: mmgrode on March 03, 2005, 04:19:00 PM
Here's my favorite design at the moment:
1. Hickory
2. 64" ntn
3. rigid
4. 4.5"
5. 3" fades
6. 1.75" from fades to shortly past midlimb and tapering to .75" at nocks
7. 1.75"
8. even length
9. flat belly
10. sturgeon skin(beautiful and durable)
11. leather string arrow rest wrap w/ fur plate
12. no overlays
13. straight profile
14. Spar urethane or polyurethane except on handle
15. no handle wrap(I like to feel the wood on the grip when I shoot)
16. B-50
I also prefer my bows in the 50-55lb range at 27" draw. God bless,
Matt G.
Post by: crosseye on March 03, 2005, 05:25:00 PM
stan
Post by: George Tsoukalas on March 03, 2005, 06:29:00 PM
Post by: Linc on March 03, 2005, 07:46:00 PM
Post by: Huntrdfk on March 03, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
bowyers. Thanks to everyone who has answered, and to Mickey for starting this post.
David
Post by: Dano on March 03, 2005, 08:03:00 PM
"Whatchamacallit" is a cool bow, doesn't fit the mold and that's just fine.
Post by: clintopher on March 03, 2005, 08:14:00 PM
Everybody make a bow to there specs, send it to me, and in 5 years I'll tell you which one was the ultimate bow. :D
Clint
Post by: the Ferret on March 03, 2005, 09:17:00 PM
Post by: Shaun on March 03, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
Post by: RB on March 03, 2005, 10:00:00 PM
Is 'full width to one-third' a feature that best be used on only osage rather than whitewood bows? Just trying to learn about this :-)
Post by: Glasspoint on March 04, 2005, 12:47:00 AM
FWIW, here's mine
50# elm, 66" NTN, from a 3" dia. max slightly snakey sapling. Center 1/3- 1 1/2" mol wide tapering to 1/4" nocks, semi rigid handle with a hand placement indicator and a wiggle at the arrow pass to help with paradox.
Flat belly, rawhide and sinew wrap-on nocks, air backing, no handle wrap, finished with parafin or Watco oil and furniture wax. Give it an inch or so of set and string'er up with one of Calvin's flemish strings.
Critiques?.......Please?
Post by: the Ferret on March 04, 2005, 07:27:00 AM
Shaun I think it was back on page 4 that i ran the statistical numbers on the ideal bow for this group, and although a few have added their numbers since then, they were in line with the others enough not to alter the "average". Here it is:
Osage, 64" ntn, rigid 4" handle, 1 1/2" fades, full width for 1/3 of the working limb length then tapering to the tip, even length limbs, slightly rounded belly, unbacked, with a leather glued up rest and some kind of bone overlays on the tips. It would have a more or less straight profile, be sealed with true-oil,have a leather handle covering and a flemish string. String material was interestingly split evenly between dacron and a ff type material.
Glasspoint nothing wrong with your design that I see other than 1 1/2" wide might be a little skinny for elm with a semi rigid handle. If it was a D bow, bend thru the handle I think the 1 1/2" would be good with a slight 1/4" narrowing at the handle for your arrow pass. The flat belly would be a good idea on such a high crown sapling.
Post by: John Scifres on March 04, 2005, 08:27:00 AM
QuoteCould you or someone you know well make some translations to hickory? I don't have any osage and would like make a good hickory one. I didn't want to ask on the thread 'cause it seems that you pro's should be doing all the talking on there. I don't understand the latitude a builder has for fade lengths and one third or midlimb on the tapers.Hickory is fairly variable in its density so you must judge it (usually subjectively) first. Heavy wood just feels heavier than lighter wood. Let the wood speak to you If you want to play it safe, make it at least 1.75" wide for half the limb, tapering to 1/2" nocks. Make it 70" total length. Make your handle 4" and your fades 2".
The concept behind the latitude a bowyer has is that each piece and type of wood is different. A bowyer must judge it if he wants to live close to the margin between a bow being as efficient as possible and a bow being broken. If you are new, just follow the overbuilt design above. As you learn more about woods, you can start pushing the envelope.
As for the variability in carrying full width to different parts of the limb, that is aimed at putting the most wood where it does the most good. Again, the balance thing. If you put more wood where the bow limb is doing the most work, set is minimized and efficiency is maximized.
The bow I specified in the thread is overbuilt by maybe 10% for average osage but I was told to make it be the bow I am going to shoot for 5 years. I don't want it to break. There are much more efficient, yet less safe, design that I would use if I were designing a bow for speed.
John
Post by: John Scifres on March 04, 2005, 08:40:00 AM
Overall length of bow makes a difference too. For a 68" or less bow, carrying the length to 1/3 for osage is not a marginal design, it is somewhat overbuilt.
Thinking in terms of pushing the envelope, a very fast design is the Holmegard. Look at this article Holmegard article (http://www.primitivearcher.com/articles/engelm.html) which kinda shows you some of the ideas in the extreme. While this one is overbuilt some, this design can really push the envelope, especially on lighter woods.
Glasspoint, I made an elm 2" wide and it still took more set than I like. I'd go wider.
Post by: the Ferret on March 04, 2005, 10:59:00 AM
We know from experience that whitewoods generally require a minimum of 68" and 1 3/4 wide for efficiencey (the exception being some of the hickories)
Because of the density and strength in both tension and compression an osage bow built to those dimensions would take little set but would be doggy and have poor cast so we go smaller looking for the optimum combo which it seems most of the bowyers have agreed on as being 64" and 1 3/8" wide.
Length of handle and fades are often personal design choices but the longer the handle and fade the less working limb you have and vice versa the extremes being a 10" non working section in a 5" handle and 2 1/2" fades vs a complete working section in a D bow or bend thru the handle bow. The more wood you have working the less wood you need which is why a d bow could be 60" long or less where a bow with a stiff handle section might need 68" or more.
We generally figure 2 X draw length for working wood PLUS a little safety margin of say 10%. SO in a D bow if you have a 28" draw that would be 2x28=56 +5" for safety = 61". In a rigid handled bow with an 8" non bending section that would be 2X28=56 + 5" for safety + 8" of non bending wood = 69" for a 28" draw. Because of osage's toughness you could fudge these numbers a bit to the low side and because whitewood isn't as tough you'd want to fudge these numbers a bit to the high side.
Post by: StephenR on March 04, 2005, 11:50:00 AM
Stephen
Post by: the Ferret on March 04, 2005, 12:12:00 PM
I don't know who told you your handle was too long, but I would disagree with them. I think it's just about right in a rigid handled design.
Post by: John Scifres on March 04, 2005, 12:18:00 PM
Post by: John Scifres on March 04, 2005, 12:19:00 PM
Post by: Hackbow on March 04, 2005, 01:33:00 PM
Seriously my hand is 4.25" across at that point, but I prefer to grip the bow with just the first two (sometimes three) fingers wrapped around the handle along with the base of the thumb. That's how I manage to use a smaller, rigid handle area. That, in addition to my shorter fades, effectively increases the length of the working limbs. I do usually achieve the higher end of average set (1-1/2 to 2"), but that seems to add a measure of shootability to an otherwise short bow. I just don't like really long bows, so I'm looking for the ways that will keep them under 62" and be pleasurable to shoot.
Post by: the Ferret on March 04, 2005, 04:13:00 PM
Wow now look I'm going to have to build another bow completely out of my comfort zone...3 1/2" rigid handle, 1 1/2" fades, full width for 1/3 of the working limb.
Ok have a question on that gentlemen. Are you counting the working limb from end of handle to tip, end of handle to nock slot, end of fade to tip, end of fade to nock slot? Not that it's going to make a whole lot of difference, but just for definition sake.
Post by: Hackbow on March 04, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
I try to leave the last 1-1/2" or so a *little* stiff making the limb tips just a hair thicker than the previous part of the limb, while still tapering the width down. It's similar to introducing another fade, but not nearly as drastic as a Holmegaard or Meare Heathe, or whichever one has the double fade and long, stiff limb tips. This does take a tiny bit away from the working limb and is one of the contributing factors to the set, but I believe that's where I gain a little performance back. Most of these results are still conjecture as I haven't built that many bows, but I like the ones that I've done like this.
Oh, and I don't make many exact measurements, so most of this is guessing. After floor tillering, I just faithfully go back and forth between tree and scale as I pull the excess off. I think I started using this basic design because I cut too deep with a draw knife once and just made adjustments as I went. I certainly didn't plan it to come out that way. :knothead:
Post by: tom sawyer on March 04, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
Post by: tom sawyer on March 04, 2005, 04:52:00 PM
Post by: Hackbow on March 04, 2005, 04:57:00 PM
Post by: RB on March 04, 2005, 09:20:00 PM
1. The majority state that they prefer a rigid handle, which is about an 8" non-working portion, and this preference is coupled with a length that is on average, 64" which is 'fudging' quite a bit (~ 5 ") below the ~69" guidelines [@28"] that are published in many references. So here are two parameters that coupled together are reducing the amount of working bow by about a foot.
When this is considered with the prevalent concept that a bendy handle or semi-bendy handle provides *more* working wood...., what has (recently?) been learned about osage design that permits this seeming contradiction of maximizing the amount of working bow? Yet it sure sounds convincing that this design has been optimized by the one-two punch of a (a) powerhouse 1/3rd working portion and (b) the arrow flipping, light weight pyramidal 2/3rds outer limb and narrow tips.
2.Is the preference for rigid handles related only to reducing felt handshock? What else? Because to a novice (me! :-)it seems that the surrender of a foot of length just to lower handshock is 'pinching' the limits in a way that seems less elegant than simply letting the bow bend more along it's length and using a cushioned handle. Help me out with this. Maybe the answer to this is in the first question :-)
3.. Back to the One-third working limb: How is this design tillered? Is the 1/3 portion tillered elliptical and the remaing 2/3's tillerd just like a Pyramid design - circular (except the tips)? If so, why doesn't the outer 2/3rds take more set, since it's bending more and has much less width? I haven't studied this bow anywhere; could someone post some pictures of one at full draw?
4.. I noticed that most of you guys whipped out the 1/3rd working limb pretty fast as if it's a pretty common design, yet Mickey and Lennie find it interesting...or *new* to them (which made me feel better...). How new is it? And who gets the credit for first using it? I think Scifres noted that these composite specs made it a Torges bow, but is this 'one-third limb' a Torges attribute?
I'm asking way too many novice questions...; sorry. Just tackle what you feel like. As you can tell, it's still muddy to me...but mighty interesting! :-)
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 07:20:00 AM
(1) Most guys prefer hunting with a shorter, thinner bow, a by product of our culture where 56" bows are now called longbows.
they also prefer a rigid handled bow for 2 reasons IMO (a) smoother shooting (b) it's more like the glass bows they were shooting before going to self bows
osage is so tough in tension and compression that it will let you get away with that 5" fudge factor you were speaking of whereas a red oak like your first bow would either take horrible set or just fail completely. It's not ususual to hear of a guy building a rigid handled osage bow for a 28" draw only 60" long ntn but that is really pushing the envelope (but proves it can be done).
The one third wider limb would be tillered a standard elliptical tiller, as there would be too much wood to bend thru the handle. I too would expect any follow to be in the outer 2/3 of the limb, which would be the purpose of leaving extra wood in the 1st 1/3 of the limb. A little follow in the first 1/3 translates to a lot of follow in the tips if it is not controlled. The extra width length would be that controlling factor.
The 1/3 wider working limb design is definitly a new one on me and I have studied bow design for years. It is not described by Torges, at least not in HOB where he describes a slight convex line going straight from 1 5/8" fade circle to 5/8" tip circle. I have many reference books and can find no link to this design anywhere.
We are all novices at this and I get to learn everyday. It's still exciting to me.
Roy if you would, please email me huuntinsticks@fuse.net I have a question for you
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 07:50:00 AM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on March 05, 2005, 07:53:00 AM
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 08:01:00 AM
Post by: Dano on March 05, 2005, 08:07:00 AM
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 08:13:00 AM
Post by: Adam Keiper on March 05, 2005, 08:23:00 AM
(2) NTN length - Somewhere between 60" and 62". I like 60" for hunting in trees and from brush blinds, but 62" bows draw smoother. Not positive I can shoot the longer one a whole lot more accurately, though. Heck with it, we're hunting...60". My weight would be 62# @ 25".
(3) Handle design: Rigid bulbous
(4) Handle length: 4" long x 1-3/8" deep x 7/8" wide, or a smidge above at the pass...let's call it 29/32".
(5) fade length: 1-3/8". I like the limb bending into the fade a little as well. I've got it right when I can see the grip rise up off the tillering tree at full draw.
(6) Limb design: Full width to 8", tapering in a convex arc to 15/32" wide tips. (I like 13/32" to 7/16" widths when using overlays, but a little wider if I don't use them. I'm not using them here, though.)
(7) Limb width at fade: 1-1/2".
(8) Limb length: Upper limb 1-3/8" longer than the lower.
(9) Belly type: Healthy radius, because I think it's somewhat tougher than flat w/ fairly square edges and 'cause I just like it.
(10) Backing: None, though I usually like snakeskins. Don't want the glue line. I'll burnish the back heavily instead.
(11) Rest type: Glued leather.
(12) Overlays: Again, I usually add them, but if I've only got one bow for 5 years, I don't want the liability (even if it's small) of a glue line.
(13) Profile: Slight unbraced reflex
(14) Finish: Thunderbird Endurance Epoxy
(15) Handle Covering: Stitched leather sealed with melted paraffin. Leather to provide "some" vibration dampening and texture for a solid grip, and to serve as a reference to hand placement. Paraffin to keep moisture out of it.
(16) String type and material: Flemish Dyna 97, 14 strands with 4 extra strands braided into each loop. (Only 2 extra strands if I was using overlays.) Nice string material. Durable, no stretch, lowest hand shock, speedy.
Post by: Dano on March 05, 2005, 08:23:00 AM
Post by: RB on March 05, 2005, 08:53:00 AM
Jawge, on the subject of handshock, my red oak board bow is your 'slightly stiffened handle' option and only has a simply leather lacing wrapped handle. Five guys shot it yesterday with a rose shoot arrow and not one mentioned that they felt any jolts. As I was telling Mickey via email, if I nock and release correctly, I only feel a soft push when the arrow releases. Don't really feel anything, tell you the truth. Delightful little bow.
I'm not advocating anything here in view of theme of this thread (ultimate bow) but I got off onto this out of curiosity over the preference for stiffened handles. BTW, the rose shoot took dead-on 12 yrd impacts with 5/8ths plywood repeatedly and held up. Cracked but never busted. 2 shots completely penetrated the plywood. Multiple shots, same arrow.
After ~400 shots, the bow still has no back or belly damage, and has 1.5 inches string follow. Good learning experience for me so I can go to the next level. Yeah...some yella wood.
Post by: trashwood on March 05, 2005, 08:58:00 AM
A point that ya need to keep in mind is that there there is no handle really. we are used to and like the fact that on a stiff handle bow there is supim to "hold" onto. a nice hand filling grip. On a true bendy handle there ain't no hand filling grip. there is hardly a grip at all. this might take wome getting used to. There is no locator, no dish to get your hand into the exact same place ever time.
Since the bendy bows are thin thru the grip it is harder to fashion an arrow rest.
all the above withstanding I fell in love with 'em skinny, thin, bendy sticks. ya can build them easily with a "box of rocks", or a pocket knife. They don't take a shop full of tools.
When ya add the simplicity of the bow to tghe facts in George's post the abo bows speak to me.
Now the girp does have some plus sides to it. the bow talks to you thru the grip. Ya soon learn to feel with your bow hand what the bow is say. ya know when your at full draw from your anchor and your bow hand.
As for hand shock - I can't tell that there is any more than a stiff handle handle. In fact I have felt a lot more hand shock from some stiff handle than I have ever felt in any bendy handle. On the other hand I don't build 66" bendy handle. I liek to build them at twice the draw lenght plus 2".
rusty
Post by: Randy Morin on March 05, 2005, 09:02:00 AM
Post by: trashwood on March 05, 2005, 09:03:00 AM
rusty
Post by: DCM on March 05, 2005, 09:12:00 AM
Post by: Ray on March 05, 2005, 09:28:00 AM
Post by: clintopher on March 05, 2005, 09:42:00 AM
Clint
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 09:59:00 AM
Here is a pic of some handle types..the 2 on the left are bend thru the handle designs, barely thicker than the limb itself, the 2 middle ones are semi bendy handled, not thin enough to bend throughout but thin enough to give a little at full draw, and the 2 on the right are rigid handles, too thick to bend. Notice there are no abrubt changes or sharp edges anywhere. Ebb and flow
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/handletypes.jpg)
Post by: George Tsoukalas on March 05, 2005, 10:20:00 AM
Post by: John Nail on March 05, 2005, 10:37:00 AM
I'd hunt with it rain or shine.
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 11:09:00 AM
I am curious though...why 3 laminations of osage? What advantages do you see having multiple layers of wood and which direction or cuts of grain would you use?
Post by: trashwood on March 05, 2005, 11:43:00 AM
With my half wit brain and wood working skills less than a trained monkey I hve found it easy to make a nice quick BBO but a bit harder to make the bamboo hold together thru very hard use. I'm sure it is my lack of knowledge and skill using bamboo.....but I never said I was a bowyer.
I shot a lot and hunt quite a bit. My 5 year bow is got to be solid as a rock. that is why I didn't back it with anything but air. I have found with out a doubt that Mother nature backs a bow with bodark much better than I can back a bow with anything else (well maybe not glass)
rusty
Post by: Homan on March 05, 2005, 12:06:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 12:17:00 PM
Post by: trashwood on March 05, 2005, 12:34:00 PM
if a bow is not pre-stress and a modest amount of sinew put on the back it is a dandy, hard hunting, bullet proof bow. it is the bow that I build today mostly. i think I would put a lenght stipulation in the formula. there is a length bow that sinew (if not pre-stressed alot) does not carry it's on weight. 60" osage with a good ring on the back and a modest amount of sinew is likely (IMO) the ulimate wooden bow. I was just afraid to bring sinew in the mix of "wooden bows") :)
rusty
Post by: trashwood on March 05, 2005, 12:37:00 PM
rusty
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 12:43:00 PM
I have got to try that massey finish. Need someone to do a pictorial on it. How about it Rusty?
Post by: Dano on March 05, 2005, 01:32:00 PM
http://tbirdarchery.com/
Post by: the Ferret on March 05, 2005, 02:23:00 PM
I personally found too many problems with spray application (to cold out, too windy, wind changing direction,no spray booth, lack of ventilation in winter) which is why I gave up on sprays and went to hand rubbed tru oil. Tru oil dries in 30 mins and takes 3 coats for a non backed bow or 6 coats for a skinned bow and seems to give a durable finish that is easy to touch up if needed.
Would like to see the application process of the massey finish though too, I've heard good things about it as well.
Post by: Dano on March 05, 2005, 02:39:00 PM
I would like to hear about Massey as well, I'm open for something better. :D
Post by: John Nail on March 05, 2005, 04:03:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on March 10, 2005, 11:04:00 PM
Post by: Shaun on March 10, 2005, 11:43:00 PM