Trad Gang

Buff story:
I was 40yds ahead & to the right of guide. Good wind.
Very open area, only 2 termite mounds for last 80yds.
As I crawled behind 2nd & last termite mound at about
60yds, buff saw my movement.
He stared at mound for 5-6 min.
Then he started straight toward me at full walk.
I was wondering "what the hell to do"
When he got to 20yds I fumbeled an arrow onto the
string.
I was feeling very small & vulnerable as I hid behind
that little mound.
I was sure at any moment he would charge & plow
through the mound & me with it.
At about 10yds I had to do something, so I leaned out
& tried a head-on heart shot, in self defense.
I remember how easy the bow pulled back to 74# @31"
The 1280gr Grizzly head arrow hit him in the neck,
which would not have killed him. But it turned him &
saved my ass!
He then charged the guide who shot him twice with .416
Not really a bow kill, but very exciting stuff!
BBP

Bet those hunting clothes now have a "unique" odor to them!!!  That by way is a GREAT story about why it's called dangerous game.

DD66

I new there was some reason why I didn't want to hunt Buffalo in Oz.   :scared:   Joseph

Come on mate.... "YOU CAN DOOO IT" you just have to run a little faster than   :help:   your guide...


Ala in Oz

I used to be able to run faster than just about anyone I knew but that was 13 years and 90 lbs ago.  Not quite in fighting trim anymore like when I was in the Army.   :rolleyes:  It's terrible what time and good food can to to a guy    Joseph

Alan,
That wouldn't be the Daintree at your back, in your avatar, would it  :)

Nahh mate long ways from the Daintree. Used to live up that a way though, at Cairns. My son Samuel took that pic. It was at my Camel hunting area out west from Townsville.


Alan in Oz.

Got two sisters a wee bitty south of ye, one in Brisbane  and one in Surfer's, hopin to see them real soon  :)

"Daintree? This river don't run to Daintree!"  :D

LOL ...

I get thi eebigeebees every time I think of that scene  :scared:

I hate to second guess anyone, but... My hunt on Melville Island last year was different in a couple of respects. I wasn't even carrying a bow, because of a recent neck injury/surgery, and my mates and I had agreed in advance to leave backup firearms behind, more or less for the hell of it. Numerous times while "hunting" with camera or scouting for the "real" hunters, I found myself in similar positions. I just stood my ground and carefully gauged the position to the nearest tree... and here I am. Bottom line: I think a lot of the buffalo blown away with rifles didn't have to be. Based on a lot of experience with bears and other dangerous game, I think that knowledge of the animal and a cool head are better protection than a firearm. It sure keeps a lot of bowkills from dying of lead poisoning. Cheers, Don

Don

You and Bill obviously have a good, trusting, hunting relationship to go after buffalo without a backup firearm.  I would caution, though, about making blanket statements regarding the wisdom/risks associated with that, and one's ability to outhink the buffalo.  I never felt in danger in the three weeks I was with buffalo, and I stalked them quite a bit on my own when pig hunting (but I wouldnt have shot one without a PH)--but then that's only 3 weeks of experience.  The outfitter/PH I hunted with has had quite a bit of experience (approx 150 buffalo kills while guiding) and has LOTS of respect for the unpredicatibility of buffalo.  He had to kill a cow last year that charged, unprovoked, and "came out of nowhere" from a patch of grass.  He and the bowhunter didn't know she was around 'till she came out of the brush at 15-20 yards full out.  Four head shots later from a .375 or .416 (dont remember which) she was dead within feet of them.  Sure that doesnt happen very often, but I've never been one to trust that bad stuff "only happens to the other guy".  Rick and I watched a young bull chase one of the landowner's horses all around a pasture one morning.  The buffalo meant business.  Why in the world he was chasing a horse we never figured out, guess he was just in the mood.  My point is when a hunter screws up (me, you, or anyone else) it is the PH that has to put his ass on the line in the pandamus palms and sort out the gut-shot buffalo.  These are big, unpredictable animals.  No PH worth his pay wants to put a bullet in your arrow shot buffalo--that said, my opinion is trust the guy with the experience to do the right thing...I couldn't live with myself if a PH or guide got hurt to save my ego and "not put a bullet in MY bowshot buffalo".  One of the real risks of hunting dangerous/big game with archery equipment is the possibility of needing "collaboration" from your guide.  It sure would beat sending someone to the hospital.

Good luck on your hunt, and stay safe.

Later

Ryan

Ryan -- I'm not making any blanket statements and I certainly have great respect for buffalo, which I consider unpredictable, dangerous animals. And I'm not suggesting that one size fits all in these decisions. The role of backup firearms on bowhunts has been argued forever. I've spent years in grizzly country and have bowhunted bears forever without backup... but I do have a firearm in camp, and when I am packing meat. Bill Negley famously decided that backup guns don't belong on bowhunts period, some people won't leave camp without one no matter what and I fall somewhere in the middle. It's up to each of us to determine our own level of comfort. For the record, I know of just about as many serious injuries due to backup guns as from the dangerous game being pursued. I am not trying to tell anyone what they should have done or what they should do next time, but I DO know this. I was in numerous situations similar to the one described. Had I reacted in the same way, animals would have died needlessly. Since there is getting to be a lot of interest in Australian buffalo, I think others are entitled to hear this opinion. Perhaps this additional perspective will actually save someone from an unpleasant ooutcome over there. Hope this clarifies my position. Don

Don

Thanks for the clarification.  I understand your point, and I agree that if the hunter's decision only affects himself then he is justified in making whatever choice he wants-as long as he isnt putting the guide in a bad situation.  Likewise if he has enough experience with the animals hunted to qualify him to even make a choice one way or the other-which 90% of the hunters do not, in my opinion.  The reality is that for lots of people (myself included) Asian buffalo are the first step in bowhunting dangerous game, whether for price, accessibility, or whatever other factors (I dont really consider black bears or mountain lions as "dangerous" game).  My point is just that when your average guy that has bowhunted in the US and maybe Alaska-I dont think just BEING in grizzly country puts you at risk as much as PURSUING grizzlies does-  goes overseas pursuing really dangerous animals he should trust his guide (or maybe find another one if he doesn't).  As far as I'm concerned I'm going to keep wearing my seatbelt when I drive a car, keep dressing warmly when I go outside in the winter time, and when I go Cape buffalo hunting in a couple of years there will be a backup guy there, just in case   ;)

Once again, good luck on your hunt and I'm interested to see how the Melville Island deal works out.

Any chance of Banteng up that way?

Ryan

Ryan -- I agree with you about black bears and cougars -- that's why I don't have a friearm when I hunt them. For the record, I have hunted grizzlies with bow alone. The real point I was trying to make concerns buffalo behavior. The stomp over and check it out response is common. As for responsbility to the guide, it's frankly hard for me to see how taking a frontal shot on a buffalo with a bow in this situation is doing him any favors. Actions that create a situation in which a guide has to kill an animal with a rifle are bad for the hunter, the guide, the animal and bowhunting. Since many people who are reading this thread may indeed wind up hunting Australian buffalo, I think it's important for them to know that staying cool and waiting things out may spare them that neccessity. Don

Don

Good point.  The real answer is mental preparation.  I wasn't along when Bill (Patrick) took that shot, but we talked about it alot afterwards.  Trust me, he wishes things had worked out differently.  Hindsight is always 20/20, and that is the problem when you are forced into making snap decisions.  For what its worth, from what I saw where this all took place it was not a real good spot to be stalking buffalo with a bow in the first place. The only cover was high grass and anthills....no climbing trees around, not enough cover for getting away with anything undetected.  I think the real learning point from Bill's experience for bowhunting buff is to choose your ground carefully.  This was not Bill's problem, he was following directions.  The advice I'd give to help avoid this situation is to go find a bull in some cover to give oneself a real chance to stalk him and not get busted.

Very good point, Ryan and I'm glad we could agree. And please let me emphasize that I do not mean to pick on Bill... I wasn't there and I have no basis for second guessing him. No one who wasn't there on the spot has the right to do that, including me. I simply wanted to make a point that might help future buff hunters avoid the same outcome, which I am sure he felt plenty ambivalent about without any help from me. The good point you made was about the cover... When we were stalking without backup, we deliberately picked spots with ample trees around, even when that meant giving up some chances in more open terrain. I honestly felt I could get myself out of trouble on my own under those conditions. So there's a good lesson for all of us, right out of The Art of War: if you are going to engage a superior ennemy, choose the sight of the battle carefully! Cheers, mate, Don

After my hunt, I would feel perfectly confident hunting them without backup.  Actually, I would like to do it.  

I am a BOWHUNTER and, as such, would feel much better about just bowhunting these animals.  Sure, there is some risk, but that is part of what I should have to accept if I want to hunt these magnificent animals.  Common sense...or perhaps, better than that, UNcommon sense, and not taking foolish risks should be enough.  And...always keep a climbable tree in sight!!!

Just an opinion, but I would prefer hunting them with no back up.  That leaves it totally up to me to do the job right, or face the potential consequences.

Cheers!

Too Short

It had never occurred to me that Bowhunting, whether dangerous game or what, that there should be backup, for me, that's the whole beauty and challenge of Bowhunting, although, having guided in the past, I can understand totally the PH's concern for his client's well being, no matter what the motives  :)

Well guys I guess I can add something to this as I have just finished guiding two Kiwi guys on Melville.I've bowhunted Buff in a bunch of different areas since 1981 and mostly without backup. Don and I thought long and hard before leaving the .458 in camp last year.Ryan,both you and Don are right, it had a lot to do with the stalking conditions, as in plenty of trees,no head high grass yet open enough to spot the buff from a safe distance. That said I'd like to also say that on EVERY occassion I went out with my clients,this year I had my .375 H.&H.and covered each and every Buff we stalked. My compound hunter put his first arrow in a bull a lot farther back than we both would have liked but thanks to a quiet bow and the fact no one moved an inch the bull did not know what had hit him. I gave that bull the best part of an hour and then followed him up. I found the bull standing in amoungst some trees and " Cabbage Palms". I watched that bull for some time before slipping back and getting the hunter. We then got into 35yds and beside a couple of big trees,that was as close as I was going to let the hunter get to that bull. I had the saftey off, three more rounds in the mag and a good rest. Ray ranged the bull and then put in a perfect double lung shot. The bull travelled maybe 30yds before going down, no bullet needed. That had a whole lot to do with the amount of cover and the fact he had no idea we were there. Ray's son Bruce and I stalked a good bull to 8yds on the last afternoon and Bruce put a 850gn Hickery shaft through the centre of a rib and cut the hose off the heart. He never knew we were there and ran the way he was pointing, he went about 60yds before going down but I followed him the whole time with the rifle.Had the boys had a choice
[which they didn't] Bruce would have prefered no back-up and Ray to have back-up. From my point of view the client and the guides safety comes first, the recovery of the animal next and the pride of the hunter after that.No doubt there are times when the rifle is needed and the hunter must rely on the guides judgement.It was unfortunate about Jim's bull but I drum into my guys that frontal shots on Buff are just not on.
Bruce and I had a huge bull walk head on to us to 5yds as we were crawling into a wallow. He would have needed to almost step on me before I would have shot him up the nose.

Bill, I like yer style  :)  

Hope we can hunt together sometime!!

Basalt...

Well said!  This is exactly the same stance that
Andrew Mackay, our outfitter, takes.  I respect it and was happy to go along with it.

Having said that, I would still be willing to hunt them without backup and take my chances...Because I KNOW that I would take extreme care and be prepared for the worst.  I also know that two lives are at stake and that should be the very most important issue.

I shot a Cape Buffalo too far back two years ago and after several attempts on my part to get in for a second shot, the Buff charged.  The outfitter HAD to shoot.  The outfitter, the tracker, and I were at extreme risk.  That head is being mounted now and I am very proud of it.  Sure, I would have loved to have done it with no finishing shot, but the story ended well, no one was hurt, and the animal was not left to suffer unnecessarily!

So...there are definitely two sides to the coin. My Water Buff on this trip was double lunged and he piled up in about 100 meters.  It could have gone sour, too, so you take precautions.

So, if the outfitter requires a back up weapon be taken, I live with it.  If he does not, then it's my choice to hunt or not hunt the critter.  I would choose to hunt the critter and do it sensably.

Cheers...

Too Short

G'day Jock, thanks mate that would be great.

Too Short, NICE bull Paul that double lung shot does the trick hey! I'd be very proud of the Cape Buff too, under the same circumstances.I know exactly were you're coming from with the two sided coin.
Cheers and good hunting.
Basalt.