This is definitely a "newb" question. :confused:
I've stated in previous posts, but for those that don't know, I have been shooting compounds since I was a teenager. I have been shooting my longbow for a couple of months and want to learn to shoot instinctively. I, obviously, had pins to aim with on the compound, so I had a reference point. How do I make sure my arrows (Easton Axis Traditional 500s) are tuned for my Bear Montana longbow if I am still learning proper form?
Should I be learning a different aiming method as a beginner in trad archery?
Should I even worry about my arrows at this point?
I definitely want my equipment to be tuned up so I know that if I am not grouping good, it is my fault.
Does that even make sense? :dunno:
Concentrate on form first, if your form is solid and repeatable then tuning arrows will be much easier.
Depending on the arrows length and tip weight 500s will be ok. Sure others will join in soon with their opinions.
Give us some more specifics on the bow, draw weight draw length etc and some arrows specs too.
I learned from reading G. Fred Asbel's book "Instinctive Shooting". Fred gives lots of good pointers and I'd suggest his book for a beginner instinctive shooter.
The bow is a 64" Bear Montana longbow - 45# at 28". My draw length is 26.5".
The arrows are Easton Axis Traditional 500s - GPI = 8.9 and Stock Length = 31". They have not been cut.
Also, I know my head weight will play a part in this. So, any suggestions there?
Ditto what Pat B said about Fred Asbell's Instinctive Shooting and Instinctive Shooting II. I found that Instinctive Shooting II had more in depth instruction on shooting the long bow than any book I've read to date and I've read a bunch. Enjoy the journey. :thumbsup:
I have a 28" draw, and shoot bows from 42 to 48@28". My arrows are cut to 29". 15 to 35lbs. carbons, with 135 to 165 grains up front, fly like darts out of my bows. I prefer 45-50 woodies, cedar, surewood/douglas fir at the same length and weight, but that is just my personal preference.
Don't worry about aiming, your subconscious will do the aiming for you. Worry about the shot process. If you follow a good shot process and decide and remain aware of what you want to hit while mentally controlling the process, you will generally hit it.
Maybe it is easier to say watch what you want to hit but think through and focus on each step of shooting the bow. Once I learned to do that good shots became normal along with the ability to quickly correct things when bad shots happen.
Joel at Ironmind Hunting and Rick Welch have good descriptions of shot process. I think Rick explains the mechanics better and Joel explains the mental processes of the shot better. Take a look at their websites.
I did not read all the comment above, but here is my take:
Don't worry about tuning or arrows "too much" at first. As you learn, and are trying to figure out a system that works for you, many things are likely to change. Just try to find an arrow that does not have very much visible wobble, and shoot. Once you get to a point where you think you are getting the form thing down, then concentrate on tuning and arrows. Getting good shooting instinctive is a slow process. You have to give your brain plenty of time, and thousands of shots, to figure it all out.
JMHO,
Bisch
I might be the odd guy out on this one... I do agree that form is everything--but I also remember what a struggle it was for me to begin hitting and shrinking groups when all I had to go by was--"its like throwing a ball, look at what you want to hit and your arrow will go there..." I don't disagree that most can learn to do these things--over time and many shots (I also don't disagree that some can just do it naturally..), but for me it all came together after I developed solid form (and redeveloped that lately after some bad habits had compromised my form) and developed an aiming system that works for me, which includes a high nocking point and two fingers under (index and middle) to get my point on closer. I remember struggling with split and very large gaps and hope this info helps someone just starting out---hitting your target does keep your interest when you are beginning---you can always experiment down the road to find your style of aiming.
Good form is the same regardless of your aiming method. Accuracy is 90% good form, 10% aiming, whether you're talking about instinctive aiming or reference aiming. If you want to be a good instinctive shooter, I would spend zero % of your time worrying about it, because instinctive aiming is something that happens in the background while you're shooting arrows working on your form.
I have learned from two great instinctive shooters, Fred Asbell and Rick Welch, and they couldn't be more different in their approach to archery. I don't even think they like each other very much. But their classes are taught the same: 90% form and 10% aiming. Interestingly, the 90% they devote to form is teaching you how to do certain things. The 10% they devote to instinctive aiming is mainly devoted to teaching you not to do certain things,
Yes form is Paramount... good form doesn't know how your aiming nor does it really care... form has to do its job regardless.
I totally agree with the previous posts.
Without first learning proper form, you'll drive yourself nuts trying to tune arrows (and you'll spend a lot of $$$) cutting shafts to chase accuracy that you will not see on a consistent basis unless you develop proper form.
Its tempting to ask then, "Well how in the heck am I supposed to figure out proper form if my arrows are not tuned?"
The answer is - shoot arrows that have the least wobble in flight like Bisch suggested. Do that for a Looong time.
My draw length is 28". There were times in my early learning where I was drawing 29.5" (over expanding) as I'm only 5'10".
You have got to obtain the 'feel' of proper form and a consistent shot cycle. The fundamentals of form are absolute - you gotta have the proper alignment of angles or you will not get good flight or accuracy. Each individual has their own minor tweaks that vary from shooter to shooter, but they all have proper gross form alignment of angles, and a consistent shot process. Its the same as with golf. Good golfers all have th fundamentals of proper form, with minor differences individually.
There is no fast way to accuracy in order his art. It takes thousands of shots over time, and you will tweak your tecnique many times over until you finds what feels good for you.
You'll reach a point where you can consistently shoot that 'least wobbly" arrow into groups at 20 yards that are the size of your open hand. If you can do that, (consistently) then your form and technique is pretty good.
Now if you start tuning (spine, arrow length, head weight, brace height, etc), you'll easily see the difference between a properly tuned arrow and your "least wobbly" arrow.
I have what I believe are nearly perfectly tuned arrows. When I'm in the zone - they fly like bullets and hit my mark (where I look) dead on with scary consistency and accuracy. However, those same arrows will occassionally 'wag' their tail end to the target. When I see that, I know its me (my form), and not my arrows.
In other words - even with properly tuned arrows I STILL get bad arrow flight every now and then, but it is because I'm doing something wrong in my form and I can usually get back on track within a dozen shots or less.
There is constant practice and refining in this art.
I know this was a long post, but the key to this is - Just Shoot a LOT, every day, over, and over, and over. You will evetually stumble upon the proper form with your individual tweaks that works for you.
When you do - you can tune arrows to a point where you are ridiculously accurate. That kind of accuracy is so darn addictive that you'll have to shoot your bow at least every other day just to enjoy the release of pleasure endorphins in your brain.
People who have reached this ZEN know what I mean by the pleasure endorphins!
Darryl R.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Jon, it makes perfect sense to me. As does most all the advice given. Darryl R. put it well.
Asbell's books (I have both, and relied on the first one a lot in my first years) has some good principles, and good illustrations,; I have found over the years though that some of his technique doesn't work for me personally. No one "technique" does.
Goes back to some of what others say: Eventually you find you own form, suited to you personally.
As far as aiming and tuning - practice, together with information, will guide you. Instinctive is not, at least to my mind, a strictly defined style. definitely aim (by using the arrow for alignment with my sight picture), but don't gap, string walk, or such. Sometimes considered instinctive ( I always focus and aim for my target), sometimes not. Works for me.
I'm with you on the question of tuning and form combined, and agree with what folks are saying, and what you're asking. Get close for now; finer tuning will come along with getting a feel for your gear and your form.
To get some sound feedback on whether your arrows are in the ball bark, let us know the poundage of the bow, your draw lentgh, length of your arrows and point weights you're shooting. That'll help a lot with the tune part of it.
Thanks everyone for all of the suggestions. I will continue refining my form and not worry about cutting arrows yet.
slowbowjoe: The bow is a 64" Bear Montana longbow - 45# at 28". My draw length is 26.5".
The arrows are Easton Axis Traditional 500s - GPI = 8.9 and Stock Length = 31". They have not been cut.
Also, I know my head weight will play a part in this. So, any suggestions there?
With the arrows full length, a 125 grain head would probably be fine for now.
What is your height? I'm wondering if your draw length is going to lengthen over time.
I'll be the odd one here, as I often am. Working on form is a given. But I wouldn't recommend somebody new try to learn instinctive at all. I'd let that come over time. If you're coming from the compound world, which I did as well, you're used to maintaining a consistent sight picture, as you would for firearms. Compounds and firearms have a consistent mantra: sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, repeat. Trying to take that system and work some sort of "feel" with an entirely different setup sounds like an exercise in frustration. I'd try gap shooting first. Gapping lets you work on your sight picture (arrow under the eye, consistent cant, etc.), sight alignment (rear of the arrow aligned with the tip and the proper gap) and trigger control (dynamic release). After slinging a few thousand arrows downrange, you'll develop an instinctive feel. But why rush it? An expert marksman could probably shoot from the hip pretty well but only after putting in the time on the range & in the field with the fundamentals. Knowing you have a consistent sight picture, sight alignment and release lets you isolate problems with your form and equipment. If you're just "winging it" with every shot, hoping to eventually get it right, it's going to be a long journey. I've never met a single firearms instructor who advocates that somebody pick up a pistol for the first time & start point-shooting. I don't see why traditional archery is any different. Both are mechanical processes. Instinctive is some pretty cool voodoo that will come in time.
But gapping is a quicker to learn & a very reliable system. If you do your gapping method correctly, you WILL hit the target -- it's simple physics. The same can't be said of instinctive. But if you shoot long enough, you'll eventually get an instinctive feel for the shot and will likely become an instinctive or split vision archer. Give the gap method a try.
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
What is your height? I'm wondering if your draw length is going to lengthen over time.
I am 5' 7. What would cause my draw length to change? I'm assuming you are meaning as I gain strength?
Thanks Yosemite. I appreciate the input. That is definitely something to consider.
My experience is that people gain a little draw length during their first year of trad shooting as they become more confident drawing the bow, and also if they attend a class, such as Rod Jenkins's class, where they learn full expansion. It isn't so much gaining strength, but using your given strength on a bow you can control to get the most out of the bow. Gaining strength is more useful for learning to draw a heavier bow to your natural draw length.
At 5'7", 26.5" draw length may be close to your natural draw length, depending on the length of your arms. Given your level of experience in traditional archery, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up,with a 27" draw length after a while. Not enough difference to really affect your arrow spine.
For target arrows, you might prefer .600 spine arrows, as your total arrow weight would be less than with .500 spine arrows, since you would have to use fairly heavy points to get the .500 spine arrows to tune. For hunting or general use, .500 spine arrows should be fine.
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
At 5'7", 26.5" draw length may be close to your natural draw length, depending on the length of your arms. Given your level of experience in traditional archery, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up,with a 27" draw length after a while. Not enough difference to really affect your arrow spine.
For target arrows, you might prefer .600 spine arrows, as your total arrow weight would be less than with .500 spine arrows, since you would have to use fairly heavy points to get the .500 spine arrows to tune. For hunting or general use, .500 spine arrows should be fine.
Thanks. So, do you still stand by the 125 grain head weight suggestion?
Yes, with the arrows full length, 125 should work. Fortunately, points are pretty cheap, so you will probably want to try heavier points as well. Full length arrows are pretty long for a 27" draw length, so if you eventually cut them down to 28", they might fly better with 150 - 200 grain points, which also happen to be better hunting weights for broadheads. Be careful when you cut them down, though, and do it a little at a time. You might find that a 29" length and a 150 - 200 grain point works perfectly, but a 28" length is too stiff for any point of any reasonable weight.
Can't help much with carbon spine; others here are far more experienced. I know some folks shoot .500 at your specs; with like 175, 200 grains up front. Also what I shot ( by way of recommendation) out of my 45ish bows when I tried carbons. i would definitely look at .600's and lighter points if I tried carbon again.
Now for wood, a Montana pulling around 42# at your draw length... 45/50's, 27.5 or a little more, with 125 grn points, I bet would be mighty close. 50/55's, 29 or so, with 145's... probably also in the sweet spot.
Been shooting 40-45 lbs, 27-28" draw, 100-125 points for a while.... just my .02 cents.
7 years ago I picked up a recurve and started down the same path. I shoot to hunt so in the end my goal was to be able to hunt with my traditional gear. And not just hunt with trad gear but to hunt with trad gear and make all if not most of the shots I took on game. My journey has been great with many ups and downs but I am pretty comfortable with where I am today.
What I now realize is that I could have gotten to where I am today a lot sooner if I would have just applied that same techniques I used in my 40 years of shooting a compound. Now that implies you have good form with your compound. If so its all same except you are holding more weight and releasing with your fingers.
For me in the end I had to use a sighting method to be able to make sure I was doing everything else right. I set up a fixed crawl used a point on aiming method and made sure I could hit a 3" bull at 20 yards consistently. I know others that put a sight on there bow. When I could hit well with the crawl I moved my fingers up to the knock three under and stopped looking at the point. When I did everything right I hit the bull. When I don't my shot stinks. But its not because i didn't aim right instinctively but rather and bad release not coming to full draw or some other form issue.
You can certainly try instinctive 1st...no where is it written in stone you MUST start another way cause its better....
I can't gap my way out of a paper bag....its not in my makeup. Glad I didn't go the route of trying to gap 1st. So, give instinctive a shot....if it don't work, try something else.
I still owe you a call.
Will chat again next week....