I called Joel over two years ago when he offered his phone # to help those with TP.
I put into practice what he said and lived 2 years TP free
I'm in the middle of taking his online course right now. I also spoke with him at some length over the phone several years ago. I don't currently have target panic, but have always been interested in the mental side of archery, and want to see how his thinking has evolved since our telephone conversations.
You might want to listen to Joel's podcast interview by The Push Archery. These podcasts are discussed over on PowWow, or you can find it on the internet. Some of the concepts he discussed in that interview interested me enough that I signed up for his online course.
What hasn't changed in the two years since we spoke to him are his basic concepts:
1. The decision when to release the arrow has to be taken away from the subconscious.
2. The way to do that is by using a non-anticipatory psychotrigger, such as a clicker, feather to nose, tab sear, or grip sear, combined with a mantra.
3. The only thought you are allowed to have while activating the psychotrigger is to focus on the movement required to trigger it. If you have any other thoughts while this is happening, you have to be aware of them and let down.
4. You have to know in advance exactly what your shot process will be, and be in control enough to let down at any point your shot deviates from your plan, which is pretty much the same thing Rod Jenkins, Rick Welch, and probably any other coach will tell you.
I don't think he offers any new ways to beat target panic, so if you are already doing these things and still have target panic, the course might not help you.
where can i find this?
This is the link to the posts on the podcast (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=154011)
Joel's website is ironmindhunting.com, where you can find out about his course.
QuoteOriginally posted by South MS Bowhunter:
I called Joel over two years ago when he offered his phone # to help those with TP.
I put into practice what he said and lived 2 years TP free
South MS,
Like McDave spoke of (thanks McDave!) we interviewed Joel in Episode 11 I think of the Push Podcast. You can find them on iTunes, Stitcher, Podbean or most other podcast host apps on your smart phone. Another avenue is to listen in at the link in my signature on our podcast host site that has all our episodes and you can listen in on your PC.
Also, check out our film project "The Push 1.4 - Becoming an Ironmind".
Its a 7 day video-journal of my progression through Joel's online course. It will give you a little picture of what to expect. Link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c5JgzszLG0
Thanks to all the comments.
When I first spoke with Joel I tried the clicker as the psychotrigger, and it immediately helped me to get to full draw each time. But I never got the hang of pulling through it and releasing at the click.
Plus I want to shoot without the clicker.
I tried the feather to the nose, but again I have problems of feeling it making contact and releasing at that point.
So in essence I have hodged podged some of Joel's method together and got it to work for these two years.
Basically using a mantra after reaching full draw and talking through my release.
Now in stress situations I can't get to full draw or hold if I do.
Matt, I've listen to the Podcast and watched your video of becoming an IronMind, good stuff!
So if I can find a psychotrigger that works for me, is there hope?
What would be some other methods that may work?
Joel has been so good to freely give of his time in the past, I don't feel right in seeking his help without making the monetary commitment now that he making it for sale.
But I want to be sure It will help, as the $$$ are a small price to pay if deliverance is ensured :pray:
Draven,
That's part of the frustrating problem, it's like overnight it changed and I haven't been able to figured it out.
The last two years I went to the two annual shoots that me and a buddy attend each year and was able to compete against him and others in our group like I had never before.
Shot my best scores ever and was able to be in control of most of my shots.
Hunted this year and took 2 deer for the first time in the same season , another major accomplishment for me.
Went to the first shoot in February of this year shot the first round really good, then BAM fell completely apart the rest of the weekend. Some of the worst TP attacks I've ever had.
At home in the backyard, some days a backyard Champion, but put someone next to me....complete noodle.
I HATE TP!
Joel if your reading any of this i'm the "poster boy" your looking for to advertise the success of your course, lol :goldtooth:
I would like to assure you, John, that you can beat your target panic. I think there are many paths to success, but Joel's is certainly one of them. If you listened to the podcast, the moderator who took Joel's course talked about his ups and downs after finishing the course, until he got to the point that he made the commitment to himself that he would never again shoot an arrow that was "good enough." It had to be exactly according to his pre-planned shot sequence, or he would let it down. From your comments above, I don't think you have made that commitment yet. Good enough is not good enough when it comes to defeating target panic. Defeating target panic is sort of like recovering from being an alcoholic: there are no grades like A B C & D, and you can feel pretty good if you get a B; there is only pass and fail, because if you leave any room at all for target panic to wriggle back in, it will.
So if you decide to take the online course, I recommend you look at what Joel says not so much as suggestions, to mold your own cure loosely around, but as commands written on a clay tablet and handed down from above, to be done exactly to the letter or not at all.
So yes, now that I've read your responses, I think you could benefit from Joel's course, but only if you commit to it entirely.
QuoteOriginally posted by South MS Bowhunter:
Draven,
That's part of the frustrating problem, it's like overnight it changed and I haven't been able to figured it out.
The last two years I went to the two annual shoots that me and a buddy attend each year and was able to compete against him and others in our group like I had never before. Shot my best scores ever and was able to be in control of most of my shots.
Hunted this year and took 2 deer for the first time in the same season , another major accomplishment for me.
Went to the first shoot in February of this year shot the first round really good, then BAM fell completely apart the rest of the weekend. Some of the worst TP attacks I've ever had.
At home in the backyard, some days a backyard Champion, but put someone next to me....complete noodle.
I HATE TP!
Looks like you know the reason: emotivity took over. Maybe because you shoot really good the first round, you put pressure on you in the wrong way. With a tendency to do things your way without being actually your way of doing things correctly, you might benefit from the course just IF you do what the teacher says. No IFs no BUTs.
PS Are you using any aiming system consciously? If you don't use one, I don't see how it will help you unless you start learning one.
I used Joel's ebook and his MBB segment to transform my shooting (would release early unable to achieve and hold at full draw). I was then able to enjoy shooting using the back of point as the psycho trigger. But, I'm in the U.P. And hunt without bait in the big woods. Deer numbers are low. I shot my 8 point on the ground as he worked a scrape. My controlled shot lasted up to about half the shot sequence. After that, it went back to my automatic style. I only recall the spot on the deer and the arrow passing through it. I was elated to have a beautiful buck down but very upset with losing control on the shot. Since that time I still use the control of the psychotigger of back of point to always reach full draw. But, I focus on building tension in my back until the point touches. Surprises me, and I release. I am using this to build good form and shot sequences , but want to eventually give it to the subconscious and just aim consciously when shooting game. There is just too much else going on in that split moment of 'go time'' to go through the mantra. I am doing more of a Rod Jenkins or Barry Wenzel style of conscience aiming with the 'man in the back' running the shot. So, it has been very very helpful but I've adapted it to my preferred style of focus on the spot 110% and let the shot be run by the subconscious
Dan
I have not taken Joel's course but I do employ his methods that he teaches. I recently bought his book and am reading it for the third time absorbing all I can. I suffered with target panic the entire year last year. Thought I could beat it but never could. After hunting season I installed a clicker on a new low weight target bow (70" bear tamerlane 35@28)that I got for indoor shooting, which would prove to be the best single investment I've ever made in archery as far as equipment goes. The low poundage and clicker helped me tremendously but took thousands of arrows to get used to (clicker). I had trouble "hitting" the clicker but used Joel's mantra of keep pulling said correctly and that really helped. I've recently gotten away from the clicker and am now using my psychotrigger of the string touching my eye brow, I am able to do this easily as I shoot at least 68 inch bows, I can build a small portion that touches my eyebrow up with additional serving if I need too. For shorter bow guys, a kisser works just fine too as seen in Masters of the barebow 4. This has helped me tremendously but what has really helped was the low poundage that I started with, I can't stress that enough. I am slowly moving up to my hunting weights with success. What Joel says in his book is EXACTLY the way target panic hit me and after reading and re-reading it, I now feel like I understand how to beat it, which feels great. Like Joel says, you have to work for it, no system will work for you. Would love to take the course and am considering it. I've never spoken with Joel but am thinking about calling him just to thank him for enabling me to enjoy archery once again!
McDave,
You are correct, I believe my relapse has been to only placing a patch so to speak to my draw cycle.
And now the patch has worn though and l don't have a real system to rely on to know how to fix it.
The shortcut has short circuit my mind again
John, what trigger are you using?
I use the riser sear with a teflon washer.
It's the thought of the muscles pressing slowly that leads up to the release.
Now, I don't know if is the reaction of my finger slipping off he washer or the sound that the teflon makes triggers the release but when it happens, it is very accurate.
Tim,
I try to use the feather to nose, but it is not working for me. Can you explain your system?
And as for a aiming system, after years of "instinctive" shooting I now use split vision referencing my point in peripheral.
In the course, Joel mentions that the riser sear with the teflon washer is probably the most accurate sear, and is evidently the one he is using at present. Joel likes to experiment, so don't count on that being the one is is using next week.
He mentions that the riser sear works if you can set your back tension and forget about it, because actuation of the riser sear, unlike the feather to nose trigger, is not related to back tension. I don't think I could use the riser sear for that reason, because my biggest problem is maintaining my back tension through completion of the shot in order to avoid creeping. With any of Joel's triggers, 100% of your attention must be focused on the movement to activate the trigger, in order to remain in a closed loop system and avoid the recoil bracing that occurs in an open loop system. At this point, if I took my attention off my back tension during the short period of time it takes to activate the trigger, I would probably creep.
I have been using Joel's system for a while now and am shooting better than I ever have in my life. I use feather to nose. My mind is on "pulling" and that is all. I had trouble controlling my mind at 3D tournaments but after talking to Joel on the phone, I shot a 184 out of 20 targets at the very next 3D shoot. You have to control your thoughts. Watch "The blueprint for the controlled shot" on you tube. That helped me tremendously.
I use a riser shear.. I drilled the front of my risers and installed a brass bushing. I use two small brass washers, a teflon washer and a machined screw.
I pull back and aim, watch it to keep it, instead of saying here I go. I say back which reminds me of my back tension. I then focus all my attention on my pressure in my finger. My mantra is keep pushing. When my finger slips off the teflon,I shoot.
With me, it is the movement of my finger slipping off the teflon and not the sound that the teflon makes that is the trigger.
Tim, I'm having a hard time seeing in my mind what your set up looks like.
Can you take a picture?
I sent you a pic
Could you please explain grip sear, tab sear and riser sear?
Thanks
A sear is a part in a gun that is activated by the pressure of your finger on the trigger. When the pressure of your finger on the trigger overcomes the friction resistance of the sear, the sear releases the hammer of the gun and it fires. The sear is designed as a friction release so that the shot is a surprise if the shooter is squeezing the trigger correctly, avoiding involuntary responses of the shooter in advance of the shot.
A grip, tab, or riser sear is intended to accomplish the same purpose in archery, although it doesn't actually do anything, like a gun sear does. It can be any raised surface where a thumbnail or fingernail can be pressed, and if it's pressed hard enough, will slip off. The shooter instructs his mind to fire when the nail slips off the sear. The signal to fire is intended to go directly from the thumbnail to the string fingers before the rest of the body has a chance to react, which is called a non-anticipatory psychotrigger.
An example is the post above. A nylon washer has been fastened to the riser in a place conveniently reachable by a fingernail. After the shot has been set up, the shooter presses his fingernail on the washer until it slips off, at which time he releases the shot.
This is part of a target panic avoidance system, more than just a way of avoiding involuntary physical reactions before the shot. It is beyond the scope of my response to your question to explain Joel's whole system, but it involves enhanced concentration within a closed loop system, and would be well worth your efforts to look into, whether you decide to adopt it or not.
I'm having a hard time picturing these sears too. I saw the riser sear in one of Joel's videos on YouTube, but I'm really interested in seeing the tab sear. If anybody could PLEASE post a pic or refer to one, I'd really appreciate it!
Tony if you look down a few threads there is one called Target Panic Reality Check that Joel started. Look on page 4 and he has a few pics of his tab sear.