What are the benefits to the string draw versus the standard straight bow arm olympic stance? can you still treestand hunt with swing draw? how many of you tradgangers use it? any tips how to learn this? thank you all happy easter
kyle
I practice and use both, but primarily use the straight bow arm when hunting big critters. Creates less/slower movement. Often use the swing draw on smaller critters like rabbits and squirrels, where I may need to draw and shoot very quickly, sometimes at a moving target.
I started out shooting straight arm but later switched to swing since I feel like it's more natural and relaxed.
One benefit that I have noticed from a swing draw is that it is faster and more rhythemic feeling.
That being said I'm quite confident that most guys that shoot with a swing draw can also shoot with a straight arm.
I much prefer straight arm - point at game - draw back - primarily because this is much less likely to alert game while you draw.
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I kinda switch between the 2... Once I start getting into a rhythm, I really start getting into the swing draw. While hunting, I start with the swing and slow it waaaaayyyyy down towards full draw. I see it's hard to explain!
Good luck with it!
God Bless,
Rodd
Straight arm for me because of less movement .
can you still treestand hunt with this?
I've not had much of a problem.... some stands are a little tighter than others, but I work around it.
Good luck, shoot straight and God Bless,
Rodd
Swing draw or a part spread swing draw with a one second to two second shot tempo. I don't go walking around in the woods with my arm extended straight out. My final aim comes in the last few inches of draw.
Need to know both in my opinion! Swing draw for quick CLOSE snap shots and classic for longer more accurate shots, otherwise you are going to get busted drawing. The one thing that really stepped up my shooting was slowing down my draw and aiming through the draw cycle, you can't do that swing drawing!
QuoteOriginally posted by Cory Mattson:
I much prefer straight arm - point at game - draw back - primarily because this is much less likely to alert game while you draw.
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Me too
I also use both. On a fast moving rabbit or running deer I swing draw up anchor and release. If I'm on stand I try to keep my bow straight and ready.should learn both.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
I practice and use both, but primarily use the straight bow arm when hunting big critters. Creates less/slower movement. Often use the swing draw on smaller critters like rabbits and squirrels, where I may need to draw and shoot very quickly, sometimes at a moving target.
Took the words right out of my mouth...
QuoteOriginally posted by Graps:
Straight arm for me because of less movement .
Same for me. I just like to practice the way I hunt, and it seems like any more movement than necessary on my draw would just be that much more likely to spook animals in the woods.
Swing arm naturally, but for large game I generally morph into a set arm, same reasons Orion stated above.
Something I learned in my compound days is how to draw that contraption with as little movement as possible. I've seen guys stick their bows(long bows and recurves) and other shooting contraptions up in the air and pull down on the string to get to anchor them point the bow at the target. This is way too much movement for a hunter. I started holding my contraption are straight out and drawing to my anchor. I'd do this 10 times and on the last draw hold for 30 seconds then let down. I was doing this in the evenings sitting in my chair in front of the TV. After a while, after I'd toned my muscles this became a simple task.
I continued this when I got into trad archery. This evolved into holding the bow close to my body and pushing the bow out while drawing back with the other hand. There is very little movement visible as viewed from down range. It also helped me be more consistent with my shooting using both the push and pull method.
I read and reread G Fred Asbel's "Instinctive Shooting" when I first started shooting trad and one of his methods was the swing draw. For quick action shooting this method is good but for me in a tree it was too much movement. When I see a deer coming in I first stand(when appropriate) facing the deer. I then put tension on the string, moving with the deer. When the shot opportunity arrives I slowly draw straight back while pushing the bow forward and release when I hit anchor. No aiming but I do concentrate on where the arrow will go...and usually it does.
Swing draw always felt natural to me. I raise the arrow up to the target with a slightly bent arm. Short pause at longer distances. Arrow never gets higher than the "spot". I hunt from the ground.
Never owned or hunted with compounds or recurves so that's how I learned.
Deno
When some of you guys hunt do you always keep your bow held up in position ready to shoot? You are going to have to swing your bow upwards no matter what at some point.
Deer and turkeys are motion detector machines, they can see the slightest movemnets just as easy as larger ones. I find that there is a time to shoot and a time to be a shadow. when the time is right, I get on with many people are more accurate when they shoot at a good tempo with a more natural cadence. As a ground hunter shot timing is critical. It is one of the last things for a bowhunter to develop.
now shooting with my arm straight out should i be extending my arm until it locks out?
I don't think anyone who hunts from the ground walks around with their bow arm up. I carry the bow pretty much canted, belly high and raise the bow to shoot in one motion. From the ground, shooting under branches and limbs is a given.
Pat B days it all
"I've seen guys stick their bows(long bows and recurves) and other shooting contraptions up in the air and pull down on the string to get to anchor them point the bow at the target. This is way too much movement for a hunter"
Deno
now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?
I usually sit in the stand and my bow lays across my lap with arrow nocked, bow hand on the handle, drawing hand on the string and arrow. I like a loose nock and I nock over the nocking point so hanging the bow is out of the question. I don't like the idea of hanging the bow anyway. I've had too many deer sneak up on me so it was hard to be ready without too much movement.
If I'm stalking I keep an arrow in my bow hand against the bow. I feel uncomfortable walking with a nocked arrow.
Arm outstretched before I draw, no matter the situation.
I do this for form purposes but when hunting it is a pretty good "sneak draw".
One of my favorite still hunting tricks, really not a trick, stand tight up against a tree. If you extended the bow arm out first, it will require that you roll your upper body towards the bowhand as it is impossible to reach the string if you don't. With a swing/spread draw it is possible to stay up tight against the tree and come to full draw. Full draw form with a swing draw is achieved in the last few inches of draw and should not make any difference to whatever one considers is proper form. Some equate a swing draw with the draw arm out too wide. Hill swing draw form is tighter than that. nhbuck, never lock out a joint, they do not like that at all. In four parts,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4kIpsoi6oY
QuoteOriginally posted by nhbuck1:
now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?
I'm far from an expert but this back tension thing is partially a myth and that's not just coming from me, that's coming from two other top level traditional archers as well.
If you take someone with a torn or even injured right tricep, bicep, or even forearm and have them draw back a bow they will be in for a world of pain even if they are using "back tension".
The arm muscles and back muscles are both engaged to a great degree when drawing back the bow.
As for holding when swing drawing, you can hold at full draw but if you shoot instinctive, what's the point?
It's just wasted energy and the longer you hold the more self doubt creeps in and the more form faults like creeping, creep in.
I have been playing around with something that I like to call a "half hold" where I swing up and hold after drawing my bow halfway and then when I'm done holding at that halfway point I draw to anchor and release in one fluid motion whenever I want to.
I've been working on it for hunting situations and for aerial target shooting and it seems to work just fine.
I was doing the swing draw for a long time and when bow arm shoulder started causing so much pain and dropped weight in drawing bow. I changed to straight arm in front and draw to anchor. Now draw weight is back up and no pain.
I did injure shoulder years ago at gymn doing weights ,and maybe my swing draw wasn't right. But I'm very glad to be shooting .
With a swing draw, the bow hand comes up ahead of the drawing hand. If one starts to do what I call a drag draw, which is opposite, the bowhand comes up last, it can put some serious stress on the bow shoulder and the dorsal cervical joint in the neck. I use the imaginary secondary image aim. If I am on target when I reach anchor, can and should be practiced independently, how much more on target will I be four seconds later? The other question is, how long does it take you to move your bow hand an eighth inch if you happen to not draw perfectly on target? Some people's computers may run faster than others, but I do not believe that Howard Hill was completely unique, as others have been able to emulate his methods through his teachings with considerable success.
Just practice all of the above and use what works best for nhbuck1. There is no one shoe fits all answer.
X2 what Orion said.
I agree with Roy( for once) :biglaugh:
Back tension isn't a myth, but it is something that is very misunderstood IMO. I thought I knew what it was for near 20 years...I was in the "it's like squeezing an orange between your shoulder blades" group...wrong. A Form Master is a great tool for learning to understand it (or finding out you don't know what it really is).
Good luck getting a shot at pretty much anything with fur on it in Northeast MS with a swing draw. I've been busted while 20+ feet up a tree for blinking at the wrong moment.
I can and have used a swing draw--pretty much the only time I've found it to be useful (sometimes) is bow fishing, and I'm not as accurate. Too hard to be consistent with it.
I practice swing (small game rapid shots), arm out (tree stands) as well as push/pull for when that style will be needed. The latter is what I most often shoot targets with.
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Back tension isn't a myth, but it is something that is very misunderstood IMO. I thought I knew what it was for near 20 years...I was in the "it's like squeezing an orange between your shoulder blades" group...wrong. A Form Master is a great tool for learning to understand it (or finding out you don't know what it really is).
Good luck getting a shot at pretty much anything with fur on it in Northeast MS with a swing draw. I've been busted while 20+ feet up a tree for blinking at the wrong moment.
I can and have used a swing draw--pretty much the only time I've found it to be useful (sometimes) is bow fishing, and I'm not as accurate. Too hard to be consistent with it.
I think the level of accuracy one can obtain using a swing draw depends on your skill set and personality.
Like Jeff Kav. I have ADHD and can hyper focus on my spot during the last couple of inches of draw once I have swung my arm up.
This leads to much greater accuracy for me since if I have to straight arm draw or hold at full draw I lose concentration easily and lose that ability to hyper focus on that spot I'm looking at leading to a decrease in accuracy.
The mind starts to wonder and lose concentration the longer you stare just like the body starts to fatigue having to hold at full draw.
As for the back tension thing I'm really torn in regards to it because I can definitely feel both of my back muscles contracting hard during the draw but also know that my arms are working hard as well since they are the levers that are connected to the back.
so the swing draw and push pull are not the same thing? does anyone have any videos or how to do the push pull draw?
Should have said I'm not as consistent with the swing draw, for the same reason though. It takes what is normally broken down into several controlled steps and makes it basically one explosive movement. I've made some very accurate shots doing it, but I'm not consistently accurate. A straight arm draw doesn't require any more "aiming" than any other style.
Push-pull is a variation. It can be done either way, as part of a swing draw or as a controlled, methodical shot.
Everyone has their own opinions and styles. To get a real break-down on what works best and why, talk with someone who has been there/done that, i.e. people who shoot bows accurately for a living and/or coach people to do the same.
I shot for an hour today and we were discussing this ability to shoot with different draws. Of course, my target form and my longbow form are distinctly different. I reasoned that in music some people that are self taught can only play one kind of music style because that is all they know. The flip side of that some can play jazz guitar and still sit in with a rock band. I am classically trained, I can fly through Bach and Spanish music, but jazz is something way different. Then Stanford Olsen contacted me and our shooting ended, he can do a variety of things besides being the finest American born opera tenor that ever lived as well. Like use a completely different approach to art songs versus the rigors of the opera stage. It is a separate skill set, that can be learned, just like with archers different things can be learned, it doesn't always come naturally or easy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4B2vCxmtFo
QuoteOriginally posted by forestdweller:
QuoteOriginally posted by nhbuck1:
now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?
I'm far from an expert but this back tension thing is partially a myth and that's not just coming from me, that's coming from two other top level traditional archers as well.
If you take someone with a torn or even injured right tricep, bicep, or even forearm and have them draw back a bow they will be in for a world of pain even if they are using "back tension".
The arm muscles and back muscles are both engaged to a great degree when drawing back the bow.
As for holding when swing drawing, you can hold at full draw but if you shoot instinctive, what's the point?
It's just wasted energy and the longer you hold the more self doubt creeps in and the more form faults like creeping, creep in.
I have been playing around with something that I like to call a "half hold" where I swing up and hold after drawing my bow halfway and then when I'm done holding at that halfway point I draw to anchor and release in one fluid motion whenever I want to.
I've been working on it for hunting situations and for aerial target shooting and it seems to work just fine. [/b]
With respect , I'd suggest that your 'myth' regarding back tension is pretty well established by a couple of Archers, a few bow hunters ..... just a few lol...
Watch Hill transfer the load to his back when he shoots ... John Magera wrote a bunch on it elsewhere some time ago ...
I use both to be honest. I struggled with the "swing draw" (see potential injury) until I went to Bob Wesley shooting school. I have used it to take several pieces of game, though usually from the ground. Usually in a tree stand, I use the bow up, push/pull. I have had few deer come in browsing away and just came up (swing draw) and harvested them. For me it works best (in a stand) when I am "surprised" by the game, and just don't make a conscious thought of the thought. Keep in mind takes practice, even from elevated position.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
QuoteOriginally posted by forestdweller:
QuoteOriginally posted by nhbuck1:
now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?
I'm far from an expert but this back tension thing is partially a myth and that's not just coming from me, that's coming from two other top level traditional archers as well.
If you take someone with a torn or even injured right tricep, bicep, or even forearm and have them draw back a bow they will be in for a world of pain even if they are using "back tension".
The arm muscles and back muscles are both engaged to a great degree when drawing back the bow.
As for holding when swing drawing, you can hold at full draw but if you shoot instinctive, what's the point?
It's just wasted energy and the longer you hold the more self doubt creeps in and the more form faults like creeping, creep in.
I have been playing around with something that I like to call a "half hold" where I swing up and hold after drawing my bow halfway and then when I'm done holding at that halfway point I draw to anchor and release in one fluid motion whenever I want to.
I've been working on it for hunting situations and for aerial target shooting and it seems to work just fine. [/b]
With respect , I'd suggest that your 'myth' regarding back tension is pretty well established by a couple of Archers, a few bow hunters ..... just a few lol...
Watch Hill transfer the load to his back when he shoots ... John Magera wrote a bunch on it elsewhere some time ago ... [/b]
I have watched Hill and others like him shoot and it just appears as though they have good chest expansion throughout the shot which leads to a strong shot.
The guy that I was talking about that called back tension a myth is Peter Stecher and he is an archery instructor.
I like the term chest expansion better because if you expand your chest your arms and back can handle the weight of the bow much better.
if the form is right the big muscles of the back power up automatically. I think some do it artificially and it shows in the release. If the fingers come forward of the anchor point at release, the back tension failed.
Pavan I agree. Maybe it's just that the archers that are really good like Peter, Byron, and Hill have shot so much to the point where it's automatic for them and they don't have a clue what the term is supposed to mean?
I know for me personally I can easily feel both of my rhomboids contract really hard when I am not even holding a bow and just mimic the motion of the draw.
Is that back tension?
Either way my right forearm and left forearm is still doing a lot of work as are the triceps and shoulders. The right forearm specifically has to be very strong because it is the only muscle group attached to your fingers on the string.
Another who shoots straight to avoid movement. In truth I don't pay much attention to my draw, I just do what feels comfortable/natural.
If you watch others shoot for awhile (3D, various types of practice shots, even hunting or tutorial vids, etc.) you're likely to see that what they 'think' they do for form isn't quite what they actually do, lol.
Most good hunters, for instance, will use a variety of different stances/draws based on the situation, even if they don't realize it at the time. And this makes sense. Shooting with only one static/never-changing straight arm, or straight up, or swing-it-up approach is not only impractical, it's pretty self-limiting and self-defeating in the real world.
As for the term 'swing draw'. I believe it is as missed-used as the terms 'traditional' and 'instinctive'. VERY few people use a full-blown swing draw (from thigh to eye level draw) when shooting, it's simply not needed or not practical for most situations. Most folks that 'swing draw' have the bow up (off the thigh) about a third to halfway to start, with a bent bow arm. It promotes focus on the target rather than the bow, better rhythm once the draw starts and still manages to produce limited movement ...a very effective combination overall. Straight-arm drawing, although having a little less movement to start with, is more restrictive regarding how much bow weight can be handled safely (beware those shoulder/elbow problems) and can actually result in MORE movement if the shooter needs to let down before taking the shot (the elbow rotates outwards more on letdown, more so than with semi-swing arm). So, I think that comparing what is better, swing or straight drawing, really isn't an apples-to-apples thing. There are just too many variables between theory and what folks actually do. If I were to guess how most folks usually draw my guess would be a semi-swing arm...because it makes the most overall sense.
As far as how well the terms 'traditional' and 'instinctive' work today, well I'll just say they're an archery version of Rodney Dangerfield and I'll leave it at that, lol.
'No respect, no respect at all.'
I find that swing draw is easier for me to adjust for longer distances. Inside of 10-15 yards I usually shoot straight arm just because there isn't enough arrow drop to worry about adjustment. Once I get to a distance where my arrow starts dropping, it is easier to just bring the bow up and let it go. Sometimes at really long distances it helps if I actually swing draw to a point higher than needed, then lower the bow to where it's needed again before releasing.
Now there is no versus....both work ...
you should learn both and be able to utilize both when the opportunity arises..... or whichever method calls for it
Both work, it depends when you swing - because to have the hand up and draw after, you still have to swing somehow. Timing for initial swing is everything when you hunt, how you follow after is not important imo.