I've been thinking about this a lot. I know there are quite a few guys and gals on here that can shoot very proficiently out to very long distances.
What I want to know is why guys like myself can shoot well to 20 and then walk back to 30 or more and fall apart? The shot is the same, just longer. Form should be the same.
I'm thinking that form issues are one reason. I also think that your mind plays games with me also. My number one reason, for me at least, is my vision. When I can see what I want to hit crisp and clear, I seem to shoot better. I can't see as well at those longer distances.
So what are your thoughts? Why with all else being equal do we not shoot as well at longer distances?
We tend to see things in shapes... A car, stop sign and a 3D target... What happens at 30 yards is you may not be able to "pick-a-spot" because you are looking at the whole target. That will cause you to shoot high or low.
Try to imagine a poker chip or LED light blinking where you want your arrow to go... Other times you can "become the arrow" and imagine its' flight into the kill zone... Takes practice, but works for me...
... mike ... :archer2: ...
Vision/focus all lead to the ability to pick a finite slot amongst distractions that grow with distance. If you can't see/focus on a specific spot you will not be accurate. Secondly, the mental war increases as a result of less confidence which breaks down form to some degree. For some, the form collapse completely falls apart... Just my two quick cents.
I agree with what the others have posted and also the longer shot distance magnifies any issues with the release, form, etc....
Totally agree it starts with vision.
Once it is hard to see a small spot the mental focus deteriorates.
One way to practice is to shoot with a friend and compete trading shots on leafs etc at longer distances.
What I mean is practice focusing on small spots farther out and not on your regular 3D target.
I agree with the others. I will add that lack of focus and problems in form are more magnified the greater the distance.
In addition to what has already been said, I think there is another factor. We have all shot a lot more arrows from 20 yards than from 30. This means we have a lot more muscle memory built up for the shorter distance. Therefore that "feels right" sensation, (which is a related part of the whole focus process) is not as prominent at 30 yards.
I find the farther away I go, the harder I have to focus. Form is also a lot more critical at longer ranges. I can get away with a sloppy release or not holding my bow arm on target at 25 and under relatively easy. at 30+, I will struggle if I don't do everything perfect and even then, I struggle. lol.
Vision/focus all the way. Once you can't pick a spot on the target it's game over.
In my mind, several things happen.
First, a half inch off at ten yards can be a LOT off at longer ranges, just like any projectile.
Second, As you get farther, it is more difficult to accurately assess yardage AND it becomes more critical due to the rapid drop in flight path.
Third, I can see pretty well at ten yards and can pick a small spot to aim at. At twenty it is more difficult and at longer distances yet, it gets to the point where I cannot do that and shoot at an area, not a hair. Built in inaccuracy.
If your eyes are awesome ( mine were) you can do it farther than most.
ChuckC
Any errors that we make in form, follow-thru or distance estimation, are magnified by what...30% between 20 and 30 yards????
a 6" group at 20 yards would then open up to _______ group at 30... (I'll leave those type calculations to the math majors)
On live targets, arrow flight time leaves that much more time for the animal to move or turn... adding to the risk. Target at 30 is fine, but there are plenty of skilled game shooters at 30 and beyond. I Just not be one of them!
I can't see tiny twigs between me and the critter that might cause a deflection. Add it all together and I just don't shoot that far, but some of my Western associates/friends would never shoot if they limited to my range Comfort!
You will see in this picture an orange dot on the inside of my bow. I put it there to remind me to "place" that orange dot where I want to hit IF I can't find a spot to focus on.
Low light, smooth fur, etc. are all reasons that a spot may not be evident to really focus on. Like many, my vision is not like it used to be so I use this a lot more now than before. This is just a sticker and the location on my limb makes it easy to glance at and then transfer that "image" to the animal or target. Of course, you have to remember to do it. May help you at 30 yards.
Chuck Adams would do this mental image when he shot at animals at longer distances.
(http://i.imgur.com/Afq1QF1.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Afq1QF1)
Todd,
I have never thought about that. I may have to try that out.
Folks talk about practicing at 30 to be stone cold killers at 20 and under. If you want to be proficient at 30, practice to 40-50. There is also the descending scale of poor practice and re-enforcing bad form/shot sequence.
Rather than shooting 30 poor or marginal arrows at 30, break up practicing (if you can) to 3 sessions of 10 arrows with more focus and intent.
As i typed the above i realized that the one thing that is rarely discussed is the ability to practice to longer distances regularly (those of us that live in rural areas that can shoot daily if we wish). A lot harder when you live somewhere that you have to drive a half hour to shoot.
I find shooting targets and foam animals do the same thing for me beyond 20 yards. What I shoot at our farm is water bottles scattered in the field. Even when hidden, I'll see the glint of light off the bottle much like seeing an animals eye. I'm always amazed how well I shoot even out to 40 yards...tippit
I shoot well enough which is all I care about...the less I analyze how I shoot the better I shoot
DDave
My eyesight has really declined in the last few years and that coupled with a lack of concentration has caused my long distance shooting to suffer. Here's where it gets crazy... 18 yards and under, I'm pretty consistent. If I take two big steps to 20 yards, my shooting goes to pieces. Don't get me wrong here, I will ocassionally make a good shot from 20 yards, but not enough that I have confidence 100% of the time to shoot at an animal
When I want to shoot well at thirty I start practicing (stump shooting for me) a lot from 50-80 yards. The reason I think most shot poorly at 30 is because that is where they have set their upper limit and they KNOW it. They seldom devote much time to shooting longer ranges and perfecting the form to do so. The mind is pretty powerful. After a month of shooting 50-60 yard shots (as long as you are not just flinging them) I guarantee you that your mind will look at 30 and say I got that easy. Long range shooting will also help build better form and consistency if done right.
I do agree with vision as well. My evening vision is getting worse as I get older and I now require glasses during the magic time - and they have made a big difference.
There is no difference ........you were off 1/4" at 10 yards but with 3 arrows it looks like a nice group.......at 30 yards were off just as much but 1/4" looks like 10" and therefore no group.
I can't shoot dots to save my life. I could not even do it when shooting a compound. I just shoot at vitals on 3d target mostly.
Form issues in the form of varying draw length can really hinder shooting at longer distances. Twenty yards and in, I can pick up just about any bow I'm strong enough to draw and shoot fairly accurately to twenty yards, past that and accuracy drops off with a bow I'm not used too! A lot of people poopoo on shooting through a chrono but it can be very beneficial to practice and see how consistent your speed is. Releasing under increasing tension (back tension) is another huge help in shooting longer distances in mine and a lot of my friends experience!
I'm not sure how old you guys are that say your vision is going south, I'm 51 and started taking the eye vitamins nine years ago when the optometrist noticed very early signs of macular degeneration in one of my eyes, I see extremely well still and my prescription changes very little now from year to year like they did before starting to taking the vitamins! I'm a total believer in them! I buy the cheap store brand ones too so it doesn't have to be expensive!
QuoteOriginally posted by old_goat2:
I'm not sure how old you guys are that say your vision is going south, I'm 51 and started taking the eye vitamins nine years ago when the optometrist noticed very early signs of macular degeneration in one of my eyes, I see extremely well still and my prescription changes very little now from year to year like they did before starting to taking the vitamins! I'm a total believer in them! I buy the cheap store brand ones too so it doesn't have to be expensive!
What vitamins are you taking? I've not seen any labeled as eye vitamins, but I'd sure be willing to give them a try. I don't have MD, but my eye doctor says he's seeing signs of cataracts beginning.
QuoteOriginally posted by 30coupe:
QuoteOriginally posted by old_goat2:
I'm not sure how old you guys are that say your vision is going south, I'm 51 and started taking the eye vitamins nine years ago when the optometrist noticed very early signs of macular degeneration in one of my eyes, I see extremely well still and my prescription changes very little now from year to year like they did before starting to taking the vitamins! I'm a total believer in them! I buy the cheap store brand ones too so it doesn't have to be expensive!
What vitamins are you taking? I've not seen any labeled as eye vitamins, but I'd sure be willing to give them a try. I don't have MD, but my eye doctor says he's seeing signs of cataracts beginning. [/b]
Wally World, they are in the general area of the multi vitamins! They aren't a miracle cure but seem to slow down or stop aging of the eye to an extent.
Totally agree it starts with vision.
Once it is hard to see a small spot the mental focus deteriorates.
One way to practice is to shoot with a friend and compete trading shots on leafs etc at longer distances.
What I mean is practice focusing on small spots farther out and not on your regular 3D target.
Bear bowman I agree with you 100%
It's all about the focus , I to have seen my longer distance shooting suffer and I finally figured out that it not my shooting ability it's my focus ability.
For me it is form and more form. At 20 you can get away with minor variations in draw length, a release that's a little sloppy, grip not quite prefect, ect. but, the further away you go the more and more perfect your shooting has to be. I started regular practice at 40 because of how well it translates to tight groups at 20. It changed my comfort zone from 15 or less to 25 and maybe 30 if everything is perfect.
10 is different than 30 because 10 is only 1/3 the distance that 30 is! Any glitch at 30 is going to show up way worse than it would at 10.
Bisch
For me I fall apart at 25-35yds. Under 25 I consistently do very well. Over 35 on stumps out to 50 I tend to do fairly decent. From 25-35yds all bets are off. I either NAIL it or send a Hail Mary and all I can figure is that I maybe don't do the best job focusing at those ranges underestimating my shot.
If you are not focused on a spot then you would have no way of knowing if your form is off or if your mistake in form is being multiplied because distance has increased.
Totally agree with macbow it starts with vision. The other things come into play not doubt BUT you must be shooting at a spot or you could just be shooting a perfect shot in the wrong place.
QuoteOriginally posted by VA Elite:
I can't shoot dots to save my life. I could not even do it when shooting a compound. I just shoot at vitals on 3d target mostly.
If you were to spend all winter shooting dots at 20 yards you will eventually adjust your form to become efficient at it.... I HATE shooting dots myself.... but i'll tell you one thing. Once you start shooting dots well, you'll be shooting 12 rings on the 3D course at 20 yards or less. and 10 rings consistently.... Shooting dots is very good discipline for your form.
This same theory works for long distance shooting. a dime at 20 yards is 2" at 30 yards..... practice & discipline will get you there if you so choose to do so.
I love to take long shots when practicing. I probably shoot more at 40 yards than I do at 20. It has helped me to be comfortable out to 40-50 yards, and now a 25-yard shot feels like a "gimme", although I'm no Howard Hill. I like to shoot at fallen leaves in the grass in my yard, and can shoot 80 yards if I want to. 80 is a little far though...!
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
Shooting dots is very good discipline for your form.
I hate shooting dots! But I can tell you this; DOTS DON'T LIE! You either hit the dot, or you didn't.
When most folks shoot 3D, and they miss by, say 6", they are relieved and happy to see that they are still in the very liberal 8-ring on the target. When you miss a dot by 6", the suckiness of your shot is very evident!!!!
Bisch
Imagine a cone from the point of your arrow at the bow to the target. The cone's base (your group) expands the further from the point it goes.
Imagine the "robin hoods" at 2-3 yards and then the expanding group as the arrow moves downfield. The "cone" would be quite large a 200 yards.
Of course the reasons for the expanding cone are many and outlined very well above; form, shot execution, follow-through (all are different and required aspects of the shot), focus, etc. Here's a big one, some (most?) get down on themselves when the result (target) is less than desired. Focus on the process and let the result come to you. Be positive and reflect after each shot about how to improve the process. It is a never ending road to improvement.
I'm not sure what the answer is. But I've noticed past 20 yards that I start to focus too much? It's almost like I can't stay focused and my eyes are bouncing all around, ready to watch and see where my arrow goes. I start thinking "you're gonna miss dummy, why are you even bothering to take this shot?!" Then sometimes I take it and hit it, sometimes I'm diggin' through the leaves.
However, when I focus more on making a "kill" shot I feel less stressed as my focus area seems to be a little bigger.
I don't know, just my experience.
-Jeremy :coffee:
I think kirk and Bosch nailed it. No magical formula or seeing vs concentration vs form ect. It's really just practice and discipline. If you dedicate yourself to getting good at 50 yards bet you will. Same with 30 or 70 or whatever.
Definitely vision first. At 30 yards, the tip of the arrow takes up much more space on/under the spot you intend to hit.
Ironically, I currently have the opposite problem. I just have some AXIS Trad's (way too stiff) that aren't matched to my bow(waiting for a good set to come in the mail). At 15 yards, I make about 8-10" groups, but when I step back to 25-30 yards, every shot is inside a 2-3" group. That having been said, I'll wait for a good set of arrows before I make determinations on that.
30 yards is a very long distance for most traditional archers. As stated in numerous previous posts, all form faults are magnified greatly. Yes, it is more difficult to maintain focus and to pick a small spot. (Hell, at 30 yards I have difficulty seeing the deer, much less pick a small spot). That is a bit of a joke, but it is hard to do, especially as I get older. The average archer usually doesn't practice enough to really develop the muscle memory. For every shot we make at 30 yards, most of us have made many hundreds of shots at 15 -20 yards. However, skill at longer distances is possible. I practice the long shots knowing full well I never intend to take such a shot in the woods, but it is true that long distance practice does tend to make the closer shots seem easier.
I think the easiest way to shoot 30 yards (or more) is to not know exactly how far away the target is. I guess the strict gap shooters may not find this helpful, but split vision and instinctive shooters may agree.
I'm sort of the opposite. When I'm sloppy at ranges inside 20 yards I back up to 30 or more, as I find that I focus better knowing that attention to detail and concentration are more critical and I invariably see my arrows flying better.
Form is everything. :^)
Because our expectations are placed ahead of the execution of the shot. It's natural for us to want to hit what we shoot at. Our minds place fear of missing ahead of confidence in those situations. Through repetition you can train your mind to relax at longer distances.
Why is it harder for even a pro MLB player to throw a baseball into the catcher's mitt from shallow center field than from the pitcher's mound? Why can a NBA player toss in free throws from the foul line practically with their eyes shut but would struggle to consistently hit from midcourt? How come even average golfers can routinely knock in 4 foot putts but rarely sink a 60 footer?
It's not rocket science...the longer the shot the more we tax our natural ability to be accurate and precise. Another good reason to consider hunting with bare bow and arrow as a short range affair.
I try to shoot from different distances.
Max about 35 yards in the spot I practice most.
On a good day I can put 7 out of 10 in a 12in target - on a bad day? not saying!
From 10 yards I can usually put 9 out of 10 in that 12in space.
I try to be consistent in my stance and anchor, but some things are about 'feel' and not something you can put your finger on.
Mcgroundstalker and a few others NAILED it. Concentration is key in traditional , or really ALL shooting. From 5 to about 17 or 18 yards I can focus like a falcon on its quarry.
HOWEVER..one I reach the 20 yard stripe I have to redouble my efforts to attain similar accuracy. Each day my focus level is different...due to biorhythms, sun spots,price of Chinese milk,...who knows why?? My point is on GREAT days I can shoot the baking soda out of a biscuit at 30 yards.....other days?????? Practice distance shooting, but more importantly practice form and concentration...take up yoga????lol.......as usual....JMO.....Jackdaw.....BTW....TSP.....GREAT ANALOGIES
QuoteOriginally posted by jackdaw:
Mcgroundstalker and a few others NAILED it. Concentration is key in traditional , or really ALL shooting. From 5 to about 17 or 18 yards I can focus like a falcon on its quarry.
HOWEVER..once I reach the 20 yard stripe I have to redouble my efforts to attain similar accuracy. Each day my focus level is different...due to biorhythms, sun spots,price of Chinese milk,...who knows why?? My point is on GREAT days I can shoot the baking soda out of a biscuit at 30 yards.....other days?????? Practice distance shooting, but more importantly practice form and concentration...take up yoga????lol.......as usual....JMO.....Jackdaw.....BTW....TSP.....GREAT ANALOGIES
Didn't read all the responses...but the longer the distance the more the magnification of error....
Lack of practice at that distance is also a reason.
Stop shooting at all distances but 30 yards for about a month and see how much better you get. Shoot at a half pint milk carton and not a gallon jug....you might be surprised after just a couple of weeks.
Difference in trajectory is an element of it I'm fumbling with as I'm moving out to 30-35 yards lately.