I have dedicated myself to becoming a proficient hunter with traditional gear. I struggled because I was unable to shoot groups on the target with my longbow like I did with my wheelie. I tried all the different sighting methods trying to be satisfied. I had good days and bad days and even developed some really bad habits. In the end I went back to the basics of just burning a spot and shooting instinctively. The hunting season ended well with a nice buck, a couple does and recently a nice hog.
I credit my success to keeping my shots close shooting everything under 20 yards. I can do that pretty easy with whitetails but this fall a am planning an antelope and mule deer hunt. I would like to extend my shooting to 35 yards and still shoot instinctively.
Any tips other than to just move back to 35 yards and shoot.
The key is to be able to focus on a small spot at the longer distance.
It will take a lot of shots to get the range part in your head.
The longer shot require your best form because a small error can be a big miss.
A lot of the newer "trad" shooters have gone to 3 fingers under because with the arrow nock closer to your eye the longer distances become somewhat easier.
Let me preface with I'm still a noob with trad gear. I'm shooting between 10-15 yards right now trying to master my form. Im also shooting instinctively.
There's a guy on YouTube I think his name is wolfie. He has a video on shooting instinctively at distance. He makes a very good point that is super simple. Whether the target is 10 yards or 50 yards, the spot you're trying to hit is still the size of a dime. He suggests keeping your focus on that small spot and try to hit it. Trust your brain and practice and you'll get it.
I'm sure there are folks that will chime in with real first hand experience and advice but thought I'd mention this.
Good luck and happy shooting. Congrats on your trad success this far!
I shoot regularly out to 50 yards. When my mind is right I do quite well at that range. ANY minor variation in form, draw length, or release is magnified tremendously.
You need to practice out to 40 yds on a regular basis for that western hunt. I would recommend shooting at a 3D deer target so you know exactly where you should be aiming and what your equipment is capable of doing at that distance.
Shooting the same arrows you will be hunting with means matched in wt and spine. I started shooting split vision so I had a reference at longer distances and I could make the adjustments. I found this more effective than instinctive where I was still guessing.
Fred Bear was instinctive and he stated if he shot low on an animal, he just drew the bow back farther to compensate on the next shot. Worked for him...Focus on a small spot and practice. Hope all works out for you.
Actually, instinctive blends rather nicely into gap at about 30-35 yards. I shoot purely instinctively at 20 yards also, because my arrow tip is so far below the target that it is easy to ignore. However, at some range, the arrow tip is right there in your field of vision, so why not use it. You don't have to go pure gap, where you estimate distances and calculate gaps, if you don't want to. At a certain distance, which you don't have to measure unless you want to, your arrow point ought to be about "there." This is what Howard Hill called split vision, where you are aware of the arrow tip in your peripheral vision, but remain focused on the target. It is a very accurate method of shooting at distances in excess of 30 yards. When you are shooting at closer distances and the arrow tip drops out of your field of vision, go back to pure instinctive.
McDave
Makes sense. At 35 yards the arrow definitely comes into focus and is hard to ignore.
As far as targets I only shoot at 3D targets unless I am just blank baling in the basement. Early on I had a problem of shooting over everything until I realized I was not picking a spot and was just shooting at the big old deer. It has really paid off when I started concentrating on some little spot on the side of the old deer.
If your that successful at 20 you should just practice at longer ranges more. Shoot as much as you can and build your confidence. Stumping is great for those longer pokes.
At forty and under i can generally shoot instinctive, just practice, past that range I personally go to more of a gap system, no I don't hunt at range farther than that, but I love watching that arrow fly at the 3d targets!
To me, this distance is irrelevant. There is in range and out of range. When shooting 10 yards or 35 out to 50 years I envision my sight picture as a 2d picture on a paper in front of me with the tiny spot I want to hit illuminated. The exact center of my illuminated spot doesn't change size no matter the range. It's always about pin sized. The 2d visualization is a conscious process because the range compensation has been become an automatic function through many many arrows loosed at unmarked stumps. I might add that I've found this almost synethetic shooting method works great for me on large/small game, 3d shoots and stump shooting but leaves alot to be desired in the target archery department IE Vegas and NFAA indoor rounds.
when I'm shooting really well at distance it's becsuse I've been doing a lot of up close form work and lots of shooting at longer distance. Nothing else really changes.
Don't know why folks think they need to shoot farther when they hunt out west. I've killed a number of elk and mule deer, and only one shot was longer than 20 yards.
Just a little movement on the animal's part can result in a bad hit the farther the shot becomes, regardless of the accuracy of the shooter.
Doesn't hurt to practice at longer ranges. Makes the closer shots seem like a piece of cake.
I agree you don't need the longer range out west but it doesn't hurt to have the ability. No matter where I hunt, I never think of range. I either get the "green light" or don't. I took a doe a few years ago with a perfect shot and after I paced off the shot. It was 34 yards. It just felt right.
I made a follow up shot on a doe quartering toward me once. Took her right through the heart.
The mule deer I took out west was 15 yards.
I usually limit my shots to under 25 yards but it's great to have confidence out farther.
Orion
I have hunted out west since 1982 and while I would hope to get shots under 20 yards I know from experience that's not always possible. I want to be prepared for the one shot over 20 yards that you mentioned.
Some of the best responses I've ever seen on a thread!
To extend my range to 30 yards I (although I want 15-20 yards anyway):
1. Practice at 40- I might go to 50 this year
2. Use point on because for my set ups it is 32 yards
3. Practice a lot keeping form in mind
4. Pick a tiny spot.
5. Shoot at targets that have aiming points and some that are blank (picking a spot practice).
5. I shoot three under.
I like Orion's reminder though that close is possible and should be the goal.
For me, my longer range shooting improved dramatically when I started stump shooting at long distances. I routinely take shots out to 100 yards (practice not hunting).... makes the 30 yarders a whole lot easier. Since you are planning on antelope hunting, if it was me, I would set up some bales in open fields and start walking around from various distances and shoot. The reason I say in an open field as things seem a lot closer to my eye in open fields and thus I tend to shoot a little low when I shoot instinctively in them.
Check out wolfies instinctive on u tube he claimes to be a 100% instinctive and he makes the long shots look easy.
I can't help with the instinctive part since the only thing instinctive about my shooting is range estimation. In my backyard I prefer to shoot 30-40 yards in my practice sessions instead of closer. I routinely fire 4 arrows from my doorstep at 50 yards everyday I step out to shoot. I found it helped me become a better long range archer.
Rich
That's about what I have started doing. From my garage door to my bear target is right at about 35 yards. In the past I went up to 15 shot for a awhile then finished at 35 yards. Think I will do it the opposite and see how that goes for awhile. Right now I am usually low over my spot at 35 but rights and lefts are great.
I'm relatively new to this awesome sport ,but one thing that I read was to "trust your shot" . That sticks with me and is what I most concentrate on after picking that spot> And thanks to all the experience and knowledge the guys here on the gang share.
I always take a few 35 to 40 yard shots with each practice session for form it will let you you know if you have any problems with your form
One other comment Tony. You may find that when you get to your point on distance and beyond you will probably begin to gap shoot aiming over the target since it's impossible to not see the arrow in your vision. Most people I shoot with do that. Some stack arrows on top of the target and some pick a point a certain distance over the target to put the arrow on.
You remember the ram across the canyon at Baltimore? We shoot it from 60 yards and I've hit it 4 out of 4 the last times I shot it with one 11. I basically know I have to put the arrow 2' over its back and a good release will hit it.
Rich
I braved a few shots this evening in the cold and actually hit my bear target 5 out of 5 in the kill zone at 35 yds. With my second string. First string was a little wild. It was a shotgun pattern but would take any one of the shots. I just don't like using point on but watched the spot and just saw the shaft in my view. Looking forward to a warm day so I can work on this.
I can tell you my own thoughts on it. Likely nobody else will believe it or accept it, but here goes.
Of course, on the top of it all. . not everybody can be the best. I couldn't jump like Jordan, can't throw like Rodgers, can't shoot arrows like Hill. . but I CAN jump, and I CAN throw and I CAN shoot arrows.
There are two things inherently concerning with instinctive shooting.
First is the fact that, yes, a dime at ten feet is the same size as a dime at 100 yards, but see, I can plainly see the dime at ten feet.
At thirty feet I can see it less well, At 60 feet, I can just make it out and at 100 yards I can't even see it.
So right off the bat, it is easier to aim at a small target close by than it is to aim at the same small target far away. Those with better distance sight are well ahead of the others in that game.
Second, instinctive makes the brain run the show by seeing a whole picture, a target, a landscape, maybe wind (branches blowing) etc and it causes you to hold the tool in a certain way that has either been practiced exactly, or practiced closely enough to allow some cross over to give or take for the current picture.
There is no front sight to put on the target, there is no back sight to put on the front sight to better line things up. Just your brain.. Your brain is great, but face it, at distance, no matter how good your brain is, having all the add on's makes it a lot easier to get it right.
At ten feet, unless you are shooting flies, a few minutes of angle miss, or discrepancy between shots is still OK and you will likely still hit the target. At 100 yards, that exact same miss will not hit the target. And that is presuming you could see the same target to aim at in the first place.
For most folks, having a sight can be more accurate than none, having a front and rear sight is better, yadda yadda. But many of us want to shoot instinctive and we gotta deal with the limitations we are handed.
ChuckC
Chuck
Good points and you hit it in the end in that we have to deal with our limitations or the ones we place on ourselves. What I like about traditional archery is the simplicity. Over the last five years I tried all the sighting methods (point on, split, gap ect) and just didn't like shooting that way. I've come to the conclusion that if I felt the need to use a sighting reference I am just going to put a site on my bow and be done with it. Or worse yet just shoot the Wheel bow. Luckily I have not felt the need to do either one. Just went back to an instinctive shot and happy being there. What I have found is that as long as I can see a good spot my accuracy is not bad. Practicing more often at longer distances has made a big difference.
Long shots really exaggerate our little inconsistencies in shooting. At 20/25 yards I shoot instinctively but beyond that I make adjustments. At 30 I lift my bow hand a bit, I mean a rally small amount, almost imperceptible. At 40 I begin to use my arrow tip as an aiming device.
All depends on how bad you want it, and how willing you are to COMMIT to it....or, how much time you have available. I know everyone doesn't have a lot of time during certian times in their life....I got lucky and had the time at the time to truly immerse myself.
So, don't just 'give up' at 20, or 30 etc if you really want it and have the time and willingness to commit.
I make the time and shoot at least a few arrows everyday. I have been forced to limited my sessions due to a trashed right shoulder (3 surgeries on it) that is ok as long as I do not over do it.
Terry
Do you practice at night. I have put a glow stick on a target at night for practice but in the past have only done this at 15 yards or so. Might try moving it back a little.
Yes...I LOVE practicing at night.
As I see it there is a lot of things that can happen before an arrow from a stick bows travel over 30 yards. You can be the best shot in the world and miss a deer or make a bad hit in that distance. The animal moves, jumps a string or a number of things. A humane kill is, or should be, the first thing in order. I had a deer jump a string at under 20 yards for a luckily complete miss. You might be able to hit targets at 100 yards but it takes a while for the arrow to reach that far. Just my opinion.
Not to worry Producer I have no intention to shoot at an animal at 100 yards. Now at the Baltimore Bowmans annual 3D shoot the last shot on one of the courses in a Ram at around 80 yards. It's always fun to take that shot an a lot of beers have been won and lost there.
QuoteOriginally posted by Producer:
As I see it there is a lot of things that can happen before an arrow from a stick bows travel over 30 yards. You can be the best shot in the world and miss a deer or make a bad hit in that distance. The animal moves, jumps a string or a number of things. A humane kill is, or should be, the first thing in order. I had a deer jump a string at under 20 yards for a luckily complete miss. You might be able to hit targets at 100 yards but it takes a while for the arrow to reach that far. Just my opinion.
Sorry if you somehow took what I posted as that I shoot at animals that far. I was just answering the guys post about shooting. Again, I never implied shooting at animals at 100 yards.
:campfire:
BTW...are you in the film business?
BTW Tracker ....you are smart to do that....because out west, you will THINK you are shooting at 20 but its 30...so you might miss or wound. So PRACTICING at longer distances DOES help....BUT!..
When you get out there start shooting 30, 40 and 50 yards at various targets, 'clump shooting'...and get use to the different perspective. This will make a BIG difference.
Dang, guy ask a legit question and gets a sermon. I can see that someone hadn't been here long enough to know that we don't 'read into' stuff and make non-proclaimed accusations here.
Tony, the other half of the puzzle when shooting at distance for me is range estimation. Perhaps shooting instinctively you can eliminate that little chore but I need to practice it and work on it constantly. I have a couple of techniques I use which helps.
Terry, I got my nick name as I was an owner of a entertainment company a few years back. I appreciate all your comments about shooting over range. You are correct about shooting in the desert and judging range. I went to a 3-d course in the desert shooting over washes and small canyons and rocks and I can't tell you how far off I was in judging the distances. I have learned to do a better job over time but I know in my heart of hearts that I better be close to the animal in the desert if I can be reasonably sure of a good hit with a stick bow. The vast majority of the shooters out here shoot compounds for that reason. I just have no interest in them.
Regardless of bow...longbow, curve or compound...you still need to shoot some distances for perspective change. 'Thinking' its 20 and picking a 20 yard pin when its really 30 still aint good. Perspective change doesn't know what kind of bow you are using.
That was my last point..... :campfire:
Why is it an instinctive shooting question gets turned into a promotion of shooting compounds topic?
Mod Alert!
I got rid of the compound comments since this is a trad site and we don't promote switching to compounds.
'Going out West' can be a big change for folks that aren't use to wide open spaces like I said before. When I was younger we played before the Atlanta Hawks in the Omni and we all started out our warm ups shooting air balls because of the same reasons spoken here....the perspective change.
Again, not advocating launching arrows....but long distance shooting upon arrival will definitely benefit those unfamiliar to that type of terrain.
Sorry this got off track earlier, and sorry if my post upset someone, but this is a traditional bowhunting site, and I had other issues with other problem threads and I was up to my eyes at the moment. AND, some of what I wrote were feelings from other members as I got emailed, called, and texted about this thread as some folk know that's the fastest way to reach me.
Some folks are very protective of this site, and some of what I wrote were their words.
Anyway...good thread and nice responses and food for thought about this subject and aiming method.
:campfire:
Well I put some of my "longer" range techniques to the test time past weekend. The Professional Bowhunters Society has a 3D shoot at the Baltimore Bowmans Club. It was a blast and they had a few sheep, caribou, moose and elk set out quite far. For my first round I shot the distance shots pretty poor. Line was good but most shots were low.
In between rounds I went to the elk target and must have shot 30 arrows at around 35-40 yards. But the end I was placing all the shots within the lung area. I found it very helpful for me to be able to see the arrow under the target. I am sure that after repetitive shots I was gapping to some degree.
Interestingly the next time out on the course my short shots were also improved.
Keep at it Tony. It's just practice. The last round we shot the buffalo at 80 yards and my first shot was under his neck. Second shot was 4" from the vitals mid body. I put the point of the arrow on the highest set of leafy limbs on that oak tree behind him. Pure guesswork though.
Awsome thread guys! One of my favorites for sure.
One thing I'm going to work on for these "trick" shots is dropping my anchor rather than aiming 6'or 8' over the target. I can drop two positions to gain distance and reduce gaps. I anchor middle finger corner of mouth and can drop to first finger corner of mouth and then under the chin. Need to work out the distances though.
I use a full sheet of plywood for a backstop if I'm shooting far. It's really tough for me to shoot halfway descent at 40 yds. Get your form down solid, that's the real battle IMHO
The issue with shooting instinctively is that not many people can agree on what it actually means. The basic definition is a moving target (pun intended) in archery discussions and without an accepted base to start from it's near impossible to build a framework for improvement...either from the standpoint of shooting or with regard to constructive/cooperative dialog. In a nutshell, if we can't define what it is we can't improve how to do it.
Here's my simple definition. Shooting instinctively means that consciously you use no part of the arrow or bow to assist yourself in directing the arrow to the mark. The tools for instinctive shooting involve focusing on the exact spot to hit (see the spot relative to the distance), and having good enough form to allow the mind to carry out directing the arrow based on what it gleans from what it sees. The arrow is 'sensed' in the same way we sense surroundings, but not applied. That's basically it. A very simple concept both in theory and practice. That's what it means to me, but not to most. I think most people include the arrow itself as an ok component of instinctive shooting recipes, some as a minor part and others as a key neccessity. Personally, I believe that once you include the arrow in the mix you are basically practicing a form of gap shooting (split vision is gap shooting). And there is no such thing (to me) as 'instinctive gapping'. You either apply the arrow during 'aiming', or you don't. Not that there's anything wrong with using the arrow for that purpose, it's just that if you do then aside from discussing form the 'how to improve my shooting' part would best be addressed as a gap shooting issue, not under instinctive shooting.
ChuckC and Producer made some good points above with regard to how instinctive shooting 'works', and it's limitations. It's not magic but it also isn't gap shooting...and there are some basic realities to it. I guess the best way I can offer to describe what it is, to someone unfamiliar, is to imagine what you do when you move a loaded-up forkfull of tasty food to your mouth while reading the newspaper. No need to calculate anythimg to get it to the right place, you just kind of know. Yes, more complicated and nuanced than that in practice, but not really in concept. Once you've done it as a baby for awhile (babies don't do much calculating either, lol) you just know what it is and how to make it happen. I think Terry once used the analogy of it being like driving a car...seeing the hood but mostly the road. To me that's more like gap shooting...because if you remove the 'hood' from instinctive shooting you can still hit (stay on) the 'road', so to speak.
Two things I would say are relative constants about instinctive. The first is that 1.) it's not really instinctive in the pure sense...like sleeping. The word is only a catch-all label. And 2.) it really is a short-range affair with regard to maintaining consistency (short range as in under, say, 25 yards for hunting). I feel ok in saying this after doing it for a long time with both compounds and stickbows. Done well, gap shooting is admittedly more consistent for long ranges and makes a good compromise for long range target shooting. Sight pins are even better than gapping. I'm not promoting any one method over the other (instinctive, gap or pins), just providing an observation based on some experience with all three.
Personally, I enjoy instinctive the most because for me it brings out the true joy of shooting. It is a method that is closer to imperfection than the others but that offers satisfaction no other style provides. And that's important, especially as I get into my autumn years and care more about the joy parts and less about the perfect parts, lol.
P.S. On a side note, it has become fashionable in some 'trad' circles to promote taking shots at game at increasingly longer ranges, simply because archers are gap shooting more and seeing better results on targets at longer ranges. To me that is one of the biggest disadvantages (and disservices) of the gapping style...the inability (refusal?) of archers to separate target sense from hunting sense. I think even well-known and skilled hunters of old (Hill, Bear, etc.) would today admit they made mistakes in this regard, i.e. on taking shots they shouldn't have taken. I hope that as a group we find our own built in common sense meters before it's too late.