Mr. Asbell gave a good seminar at Kalamazoo on Saturday. One of his major points was stance and that being quite a bit more forward facing than perpendicular. His well taken point was that it eliminates a lot of head position (at anchor) errors thereby reducing left and right dispersion of shots. I was also impressed with his ideas on shooting fletchings that are highly visible so as to ingrain the arrow flight whilst learning to shoot by purely pointing rather than aiming. Food for thought.
The forward stance is a good point. I found this out by accident,but have been doing it with good success. I find it easier to get a good release like this also,and like you say it is more consistent.
He said that even the Olympic archers are doing more forward stances in training. His well taken point was that tree stand shooting at game is more forward due to being cramped some in the stand and game being at all angles to the shooter. Im going do some basement shooting today and well see. It does shorten your draw length some but Id say not a lot.
That's good to hear because I shoot with a forward stance it just feels more natural and solid.
Do you find that your draw length is a touch shorter as you move more forward with your stance?? Or is that a silly thought?
I've been a little confused about this type of stance---does that mean more open? Looking at the form clock I have been using a closed stance pointing with my right shoulder directly at the target(I shoot lefty). If I opened my stance my right shoulder would be pointing to the right of the target and the elbow, string hand, bow shoulder alignment would be off. Not sure how this is done---but really interested in your input.
there is no magic bullet and everyone is a little different in shape and form . I don't believe in preaching a one size fits all type of form solution .
I like the form clock terry Green has pinned here and this fits my style though it may not fit others . just my 2 cents worth
By my understanding Mr. Asbell is a strong voice for not aiming at all. Hes pointing his bow hand and learning how to make that as repeatable as possible.He said that since were not all identical there will be variances on his method of pointing and firing. He says he does not look at the arrow when drawing and takes pains to shoot by pointing instead. By what he says I don't think he aims at all other than pointing his hand towards the bulls-eye and super concentrating on a spot. I am no advocate here. I just find his ideas fascinating to put it mildly.
I like reading Fed's stuff.....including his stalking book. That info could be useful on your 'go to' backyard shot trying to nail down your perfect shot......
My take is form is from the waist up....and stance doesn't matter....nor should your draw length change in different positions.
I demonstrated this and different can't angles and even reverse can't in the Bowhunters of Tradgang DVD.
I agree Terry, really comes into play in hunting situations, who knows if you will be able to get a "correct" stance in the split second that it all comes together.
Yeah Terry I think Fred's main reason for the stance was so shooting form via the head was more repeatable. He said it was what he taught at his schools. I like the thought of the purely non aiming shot and training to do just that.
I read G. Fred's book early on and found that was how I stood to shoot. With a lean towards the target, and three point reference for my anchor.
I'm with Terry in the fact that it is all from the waist up. But for me I had trouble getting the shoulder alignment in the right position with an open stance.
I have to be with Drew and Terry on this as that is how I have always shot with pretty good success. I am sure though that there are instances when hunting and shoothing 3D's, things aren't going to be perfect, so one should try and do some practicing with less than perfect form.
I agree with the poster who said these techniques need to be adapted to each shooter, which is exactly right in my experience thus far. I have read dozens of pretty vitriolic debates on the subject over on AT where the field archery guys and the hunting guys go at each others throats and I just laugh. There is no 'one style fits all'...its just like bows.
'Form' aside I have found that actually getting your shot sequence down and having a consistent follow through on your release are critical. If you can establish your timing and keep that release clean and follow the shot completely to its conclusion you stand a good chance of being rewarded for your efforts, whether stance is standing, kneeling, sitting, open, closed, etc.
I am on the upper body alignment and consistent anchor and extension being the key train. What you do with your feet should not affect the shot. I have worked with the G Fred open stance and it does help with bow arm clearance, but changes my draw length unless I focus. For me the key is to practice with a variety of foot positions, kneeling and sitting, and variety of angles, not just off my bow shoulder. Turkeys and deer never seem to show up where I expect them too.
I have talked with Fred many times about the open stance. It's good to remember that Fred is talking about a HUNTING shot.We rarely align our treestand or ground blinds with our bow shoulder pointing toward the expected shot area (although I suppose some guys do) We are usually FACING our target area.
It also helps clear any bulky clothing from the string.
For ME.....it takes a lot of variable out of my head position.
It does shorten my draw length a touch, but not so much that it changes anything.
I love G. Fred but I do NOT use his open stance and find it very unnatural and unergonomic. I fully understand and appreciate its application in the field. I love pulling my bow across and through my shoulders, my power stroke...aligning everything along the way. Squaring to this, to me, seems counterintuitive. Agree with "from the hips up" but oddly do not have that flexibility and prefer to match my stance with my torso.
Quote
"We rarely align our treestand or ground blinds with our bow shoulder pointing toward the expected shot area (although I suppose some guys do) We are usually FACING our target area. "I ALWAYS orientate my stands with my left bow shoulder (R handed) towards the area of greatest shot probability, otherwise I stand-up for off-side shots. I call this my "power side".
Kris
Most people are converting from shooting a compound w/ a release aid. IMO, this is the biggest hurtle to overcome w/ the switch. Release style of shooting advocates a stance that allows the archer to lean back at fulldraw, a huge problem when shooting w/ fingers. Opening your stance can help a lot to rid of the leaning back problems.
For me shoulder alignment is the most critical piece in the shot sequence to get right. I have found that no matter what my stance or bow cant if the shoulders point towards the target and I get the bone on bone position Arne preaches so much my shot go where there are intended. When stumping I practice all kinds of body positions while trying to maintain a consistent upper body position. Then I just have to hope that in a hunting situation my muscle memory will take over and keep me right.
I am a whatever works and is fun for you - works for me kind of shooter.
So what Fred advocates is fine and likely is for many others.
For me - it doesn't work as there are too many moving parts for me to be consistent. I need to square my upper body to the target and come to a consistent and paused anchor with my arm back and back muscles engaged before refocusing on the target to complete shot . I do this for hunting too.
I do question the advocacy for an open stance in a tree stand being better though. When I read the OP I thought, that is fine but will not be so good from a tree stand. Then to see it is better... I don't know....Bending at the waist is important to not shorten your draw when shooting down (or up). That is important for all styles. Yet opening up your stand only shortens your draw length and how can you control the amount of "openness" in a tree stand? One too many variables for me.
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I am never really sure what a pure bone on bone stance would be. There is always a certain amount of offset from shoulder to the bow whether the arm is straight or bent, our anchor points are never in a straight line from elbow to elbow, the offset is automatic. When I shoot with a straight arm I can feel it in my elbow, no matter what bow I am shooting, that cannot be a good thing. I am pretty certain that my shoulders are in line right handed and because of a limited range of motion in my neck, I am slightly open when shooting left handed, the difference is about one half inch of total draw length. I often wonder how Howard Hills form would be analyzed, it would be hard to argue the results either way.
When shooting at a conveniently placed target or a bunny in the brush different things quite often need to happen. While I do not think squatting with my butt sticking out should be my standard shot, it is good to have a shot in my arsenal that would allow me to take those down and under shots. When it comes to target practice, I am on the lookout for things that are not ergonomically correct for me and which things are ergonomically correct for me. Like I said, a jammed straight arm is a big no-no for me and a jammed neck is a close second. Many shoulder and elbow problems can begin in the neck with an interruption in the nerve supply, but it is also possible to draw and shoot a bow in ways that can hurt you, much like picking up a heavy bucket of water close to the body and using one's knees or reaching way out with a straight arm and only lifting with the back and the shoulder. I do agree if shooting form is not repeatable we are not going to hit much.
What I am surprised at is how many Bow Hunters never practice except at the target range. I believe form work is very important - IN THE BEGINNING and then every once in a while. However, if bow hunting is your cup of tea then MOST of your practice should be out in the woods, mountains, forest and streams shooting the way you will hunt. if you are going to be a successful bow hunter you have to move PAST basic form. Look at an NBA player - yes I am sure most of them spent a volume of time in the beginning working on static form. However, as they progress they then move the majority of their practice to shooting under game type situations.
ALL that really matter is that the bow is drawn to the same length each shot (same energy imparted to arrow), the arrow is pointed to the spot you want to hit, and then you remain stable until arrow impacts. You do that consistently on every shot and I don't care how you stand, where you anchor, where your butt is, how fast you draw or shoot you will be a good shot.
Good form in NOTHING more then consistently releasing an arrow - the rest MAY makes it easier at times to do that..... but EVERYONE is different and a cookie cutter approach doesn't leads itself any better to archery/bow hunting then it does shooting baskets on the court.
We SOOOOO over complicate archery. I am amazed at all the tuning threads. Bare shaft, paper, broad head, filed points, FOC...... none of that will make you a better archer if you are not CONSISTENT. Crap just work on consistently hitting the same spot and you will know if your arrows are tuned. Same with form, if you are consistently hitting the spot at 25 yards then who cares if you have text book form. Having great BOOK form doesn't ensure you will hit squat if you aren't consistent.
Last point, this is traditional archery and I am sorry to let this cat out of the bag.... not everyone will be able to shoot like Jenkins, Welch or Hill...... we ALL have our limitations and we should LEARN THEM, ACCEPT THEM (and yes I know you can improve but accept them for what they are today - you could take Shaq and have him practice for three decades and he would never be a great 3 point shot - sorry that's life), and then work on hunting skills to narrow the gap..... not rely on new techniques, shooting aids, lighter arrows, faster bows, etc.....
DaveT, you hit the nail on the head.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wallydog:
He said that even the Olympic archers are doing more forward stances in training. His well taken point was that tree stand shooting at game is more forward due to being cramped some in the stand and game being at all angles to the shooter. Im going do some basement shooting today and well see. It does shorten your draw length some but Id say not a lot.
I just wanted to touch on these three points.
Olympic shooters do tend to open up their stance a bit more than they used to, but this is only from the waist down. Yes, their feet may be 20 degrees from perpendicular to the target, but they rotate their trunk to the right (right handed archer) to build tension into the shot. At full draw their shoulders and bow arm form a straight line, which brings their shoulders slightly past penpendicular to the target, or as some would say, closed. Google search NTS Archery Method for more detailed information. Suffice it to say they do not shoot with the same type of open or forward stance Mr. Asbel now advocates.
With respect to tree stands and ground blinds, I always move my feet (or knees in a blind) to get the alignment I want. If I can't make a comfortable shot, I don't take one.
If a variation in form shortens my draw length than it's the last thing I would want to do with a broadhead on my arrow shooting at a live animal. Changes in draw length equal changes in tuning which equals changes in accuracy. To me, this is not conducive to what I want in the hunting woods.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
I was at the baltimore classic a couple years ago and shot with quite a few different groups. I found it interesting how you could spot the different forms from a long ways off watching different groups..... It was obvious which archers spent a lot of time shooting indoors on a line, and the D shape long bow archers had their own style too...
But i couldn't help but laugh when we came up on Fred Ashbells group of about 20 shooters all hunched over & squatting like apes shooting at the same time..... It would take 20 lanes indoors to accommodate 10 ashbell style shooters....
I'm sorry but i just don't agree with teaching rookie archers that shooting style. Too many bad habits to break down the road.... A Rod Jenkins nightmare i'm thinking.... To each his own though...
"Hunched over and squatting like an ape"...?
Nonsense. Knees flexed in an athletic stance is more like it. Bashing the instinctive style of shooting that Fred teaches is all the rage these days. :rolleyes: It works in the woods, it works for me.
Shooting instinctively is no more difficult than throwing a ball.
I have to be aligned and not facing the target if I am to make a good shot. I as well as lots of others have made kills in awkward positions and if you are gonna kill stuff you have to be adaptable. But as Jason said I always move to line up when a critter is coming and it is rare when I cannot.
I shoot a mix of styles with a little I have picked up from everyone. It works for me. Pushing straight at the target and pulling straight away from the target is a must for me and longer shots prove it more.
My Hero John Shulz really stresses this in his video as well as Rick Welch in his. Two entirely different forms .
I have killed pigs from my knees leaned over so far my anchor hand felt grass. It worked but was it the most accurate way to shoot..no but all I had at the time.RC
I think we best be careful bashing others on Tradgang and laughing making fun of them and comparing them to animals...it's not worth $300 for us to tolerate it.
Thank you Terry. That's the one thing that sets this site apart. There are lots of interesting archery and bow hunting sites, but I've read some pretty bitter arguing and real insults on most of them.
I've coached youth skeet shooting and make every attempt to get the kids started off correctly with proper form, shooting from the dominant eye side. They normally progress very quickly. Once they do, most will develop their own styles, but will maintain good form. I will not attempt to convert an experienced shooter unless he asks for help. I expect the same courtesy in archery where I'm the student.
We each have our own shooting system and should not have to justify it to our peers. I'm more than willing to try something new and if it works for me, great. If it doesn't, than it doesn't work for ME. Doesn't make it right or wrong- just not right for me.
I noticed that most who bash Fred have killed about 4 box car loads LESS than Fred. As goes with most bashers.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
I think we best be careful bashing others on Tradgang and laughing making fun of them and comparing them to animals...it's not worth $300 for us to tolerate it.
I wasn't bashing anyone Terry. I've met Fred and he's a great guy. I was just trying to be humorous, not critical.....
I sincerely apologize if that post came off wrong. I meant no disrespect.
The point i was trying to make was that there are a lot of different shooting styles, and i don't think Freds shooting style mixes well with archers interested in developing good alignment and back tension. That's just my opinion. Freds style is radically different than other form styles...
This is the kind of thread that causes me to want to stay away. Its not the information, I can ignore it if I want. It's the intolerance for other points of view. Thankfully, this is more rare here than places I used to haunt. I suppose most of that is due to self-regulation and some by monitors.
Yes, I sometimes have some of that low tolerance but I try to keep it to myself, but not always successful.
From time to time it seems as if certain people have to be agreed with or risk criticism.
I don't believe there are infinite "best ways" to shoot a bow. If something is working for you that is terrific... until it doesn't... due to a faulty mental approach or physical injury. I've been there and done it and learned the error of my ways. I'm also thankful that I have not been among the 70% who dropped out of archery because of these issues.
My number one criticism of archery is the motivation of some to promote something different from the "norm" simply to stand out or market themselves or product. I'm thinking of no one in particular here - in fact I greatly admire the person who is the subject of this thread for what he has invested in bowhunting. He is a "top-tenner" too me. I'm proud he was a Hoosier!
I subscribe to archery processes that work for most people, most of the time. I firmly believe the upcoming generation archers will have a very strong foundation (pun intended).
G. Fred sought advice from lots of sources for years that lead to the development of his style. The goal was always to make better shots at game. His association with Black Widow and his shooting style seemed to come along with each other. It is a good way to shoot a Black Widow recurve from a tree stand or from tight cover. The form that I used with my BW target bow was target form and even though there were Emery Loisaile articles of how to use a BW target bow for hunting. I could never get that to work for me. When I was using both BW recurves and longbows, I shot longbows Hill style and had to adopt my form to fit the BW. It was very close to what G. Fred did with his.
Some people are pitchers and others are shortstops when shooting a bow. A pitcher needs a repeatable process to be accurate while others (shortstops) do best when responding to the situation given them to get the arrow where it needs to go. If you are not into baseball analogies and would rather talk football, some quarter backs (shooters) are at their best in the pocket shooting from a set position while others do best scrambling. You need to decide which best fits your personality/mentality and develop that style. Either will work when hunting. With practice either can be developed to give you a quick shot at a moving target.
I'm a pitcher or pocket passer, I need to line my shoulders with my target, and follow my shot process in order to make a shot.
Know what you are and you can develop either into a fluid quick and accurate shot.
I grew up in Indiana. I haven't lived there since 1989 but I still go back to hunt. In fact, I choose IN or IL or IA.
Some of the reservoir public areas are among the best and most under hunted (archery) in the state. Many good public WMAs as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by DaveT1963:
We SOOOOO over complicate archery. I am amazed at all the tuning threads. Bare shaft, paper, broad head, filed points, FOC...... none of that will make you a better archer if you are not CONSISTENT. Crap just work on consistently hitting the same spot and you will know if your arrows are tuned. Same with form, if you are consistently hitting the spot at 25 yards then who cares if you have text book form. Having great BOOK form doesn't ensure you will hit squat if you aren't consistent.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr330/livrht/DSCF0357_zps15ed665c.jpg) (http://s496.photobucket.com/user/livrht/media/DSCF0357_zps15ed665c.jpg.html)
I couldn't agree more Dave!
I agree with the statements about being consistent with form and alignment and good shooting should follow, which would be applicable to any shooting style.
I have seen amazing archers shooting Fred's style and also shooting with a form with a vertically held bow while standing tall.
I think it just comes down to the person and each form has pro's and con's.
For me, I shot Fred's style for many years and I eventually hit a plateau and developed TP. That's just me... When I began to unlearn his style and shoot more like Arne's style (Moebow), relearning my form I began to shoot much better and have surpassed my multi yr. plateau. Granted it's taken a couple of years and relearning my form caused me to shoot poorly for a while and miss a hunting season. But that's now the past, thank goodness.
That said, I don't think shooting Fred's style that I was getting good alignment, but that is my fault.
Now I can self correct much better and I like having "better posture" as I get older...
Just remember....good form doesn't know or care if the bow is vertical or canted.
form can be carried to infinite positions.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kris:
I love G. Fred but I do NOT use his open stance and find it very unnatural and unergonomic. I fully understand and appreciate its application in the field. I love pulling my bow across and through my shoulders, my power stroke...aligning everything along the way. Squaring to this, to me, seems counterintuitive. Agree with "from the hips up" but oddly do not have that flexibility and prefer to match my stance with my torso.
Quote
"We rarely align our treestand or ground blinds with our bow shoulder pointing toward the expected shot area (although I suppose some guys do) We are usually FACING our target area. "
I ALWAYS orientate my stands with my left bow shoulder (R handed) towards the area of greatest shot probability, otherwise I stand-up for off-side shots. I call this my "power side".
Kris [/b]
I do the same, position my stands so the prime area is about 10 o'clock. Started this when hunting with firearms and continued it with my archery gear.
What I like about Fred's view on a front stance is that if you are stalking game and are confronted you probably don't have the opportunity to stop, turn your body into your favorite stance to take the shot. You may have only the opportunity to make the shot from the forward stance you are in. I found that by practicing this while slowly walking this way at my 3D targets it wasn't that hard to accomplish this shooting style.
If I am caught with an animal coming straight at me, I just rotate my right foot out to open up my hips so I can rotate myself to the right at the waist into my normal alignment.
I also show this in The Bowhunters of TradGang DVD.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
If I am caught with an animal coming straight at me, I just rotate my right foot out to open up my hips so I can rotate myself to the right at the waist into my normal alignment.
I also show this in The Bowhunters of TradGang DVD.
Actually, I've seen Fred do the same thing. He calls it "pushing with your bow arm," but the result is that he ends up with his feet open but his shoulder pointed toward the target. I'm not sure he ends up with his shoulders in perfect form-clock alignment with the target, but they're more aligned with the target than his feet are.
Look at his ad on p. 22 of the current TBM, and you'll see what I mean.