Trad Gang
Topic Archives => How To - Resources => Topic started by: the Ferret on December 12, 2006, 01:55:00 PM
Figured it was time to do a tute on mounting flint heads. There are several types of flint heads of which I don't know the technical names of the bases but I call them flint heads with tangs, with side notches or with base notches. I mount them all the same it's just the sinew wrapping that's different. Here are some of the things you'll need, a shaft (this one is wild rose), a flint head (I'll be using the tanged model for this tute), some sinew, a pencil, some pine pitch (pine sap and charcoal mix)or some medium grade CA glue (which is what I use these days for the most part).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflinta.jpg)
The thinner the head the easier it is to cut your slot to mount.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintb.jpg)
Some guys just use a V notch. I use a slot cut specifically for each head. I do this by laying the head on the shaft and tracing around it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintc.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintd.jpg)
Make sure you mount it deep enough so that the end of the shaft is at least 1/4" past where your tie off or side notches will be for support
Then I use a scroll saw (you could also do this by hand with a coping saw) and cut on my lines
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflinte.jpg)
it should come out something like this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintf.jpg)
Trial fit your head and if it doesn't fit use some sandpaper to remove stock that is obstructing it
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintg.jpg)
with a little hand sanding you should easily get the head to fit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflinth.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflinti.jpg)
Now remove the head and using either your hand sandpaper or a bench belt sander sand the ends of the shaft down to match your head which will make it penetrate easier and look nicer
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintj.jpg)
It should look like this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintk.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintl.jpg)
At this point if you are using pine pitch heat up a glob and stick it on the back of your flint and slide it in the slot and make sure it is aligned properly and will spin true...adjust if necessary, if you are using the CA glue put the head back in the slot, align, make sure it spins properly and dribble some ca glue in from both sides. Set aside to dry/cure for a spell. It should be noted that pine pitch is more traditional and will fill in the gaps between the shaft and head better than the CA glue will. The CA glue is just easier and "not quite as messy". Both however will hold the head in place.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintn.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintm.jpg)
Next take a strand of sinew and either moisten it and dip in hide glue or pop it in your mouth and chew on it awhile (thanks for the tip PatB)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflinto.jpg)
Once moistened, start wrapping up next to the head and keep wraping tightly around the shaft until you use the whole strand. If you need more to cover the slot and part of the shaft use more.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintp.jpg)
When finished it should look like this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintq.jpg)
Set aside to dry for awhile and then cover your sinew with some tite bond 3, some super glue or something to help waterproof the sinew
Here's a group of flint headed arrows that I just finished for a Texas hunt..notice how the sinew wrapping on some is actually on the blades. This is necessary when there are no notches or tang to wrap around
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/Texas07.jpg)
Nice build-along Ferret. Is that head, fourth from the left copper?
No Talondale, it is some kind of red flint.
Love the knife Mickey
Here are a couple with side notches and no notches. Notice how the sinew wrapping is done to anchor the head to the shaft.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/flintwrapped-1.jpg)
BTW if you look at the bottom gray head in the pic above you can see it was mounted with the pine pitch (black gooey stuff), the top white one with the CA glue.
Thanks David, the blade for that was knapped by Roy Boggs here on tradgang, a very talented knapper.
Wow that was cool. Wish I had half the talent as you.
How do you know if those heads will fly straight, can you shoot them into a target?
Best of luck in Texas.
So are those Ferret-brand heads???
Very nice Mickey as always.
That white one reminds me of the one you showed me a couple years ago. Didn't you get your deer with that one that year.
Pasty... if the point of the head is aligned with the centerline of the shaft, and if the head spins true, it will fly true. I do shoot them into foam once or twice to make sure they fly before I will hunt with them.
Bowspirit..I wish. Knapping is a talent I have not acquired. I trade, buy, beg or whatever to get my flint heads.
Jason..yes I did kill a deer with a flint that year and have an article coming out in a future issue of Primitive Archer about it.
thats so sweet!!!!!!!is there DVD that is good on Knapping? :)
My heroes when it comes to flint knapping are Tim Ott, Roy Boggs, and DTala and my heroes when it comes to killing critters with flint are Tim Ott, DTala and Doug Campbell. Those boys throw the rocks at em and slay em!
Heres a pic of some mounted flint heads I had saved...not sure who mounted these
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/Huntingpoints.jpg)
and some beautiful flint heads with awesome colors. I don't know who knapped these heads below but I have been told the process to make them, makes them very brittle and not really good for hunting. These are more along the collectible lines of arrowheads.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/flintheads.jpg)
Those heads on the bottom are from Ron Sanders, I believe. Too short posted that pic. Right bfore I got ahold of Ron and ordered these LOL.
Still waiting til I get a selfbow made before I try to take a deer with em.
The bottom pic is of a couple I mounted on Laminated Birch shafts. Dont remember who I bought them from. They fly great though. Think I used 5 min epoxy with artificial sinew to mount them.
BP
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/kodiak1028/Arrows/PC230013.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/kodiak1028/Arrows/ph64674337.jpg)
This tutorial was a big help to me and just what the Dr. ordered. Where can I get some of these heads to do this?
Just going to add my $0.02 learned from making and shooting a ton of flint tipped arrows.
The process for mounting described and shown is dead on to the one that I use. I will add however, that more sinew is needed both where it criss-crosses over the point and behind the point to prevent splitting.
All of the heads shown moutned in the pic with your bow and knife require additional sinew to avoid possible lateral movement when shot into a critter. The haft is the weakest link in the system and I think we need to do as much as possible to avoid trouble here.
I hope that I can respectfully submit this suggestion knowing full well that your knowledge of bowyery is well beyond mine.
Below is a pic of a point I used to kill a deer this year. I thought I had used plenty of sinew and ground the edges of the point sufficiently.....apparently this was not the case. The arrow did its job quickly and efficiently, but the point still came loose because of broken sinew.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b36/flntknp17/Picture163.jpg)
Matt
Here is a pic of one of my hunting points hafted with emu sinew. It is crucial to get enough sinew both in the criss-cross and between the notches around the tip of the shaft.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b36/flntknp17/Picture049.jpg)
Another thing to note is that artificial sinew os made of nylon and as such stretches quite a bit. A head hafted with arificial sinew relies entirely on the glue or pitch for strength. Try some fly tying thread or flax string making thread if you don't have any real sinew.
Matt
Matt I respect your opinion very much and will put some more sinew on mine if that is your suggestion. I met Matt on the old *********** close to 10 years ago when he was just a college student and he knapped this head for me in about 10 minutes at Mojam 1. Matt knows knapping! You can see by the markings on it I was a complete newbie at mounting flint heads and actually drew on the head how I wanted to mount it. Under the copious amount of hide glue it says "Made by Matt Graesch Mojam 1". It has been on my trophy wall ever since.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/flintheada.jpg)
and here is a head that I killed a deer with a couple years ago. The head was knapped by Steve White. This head entered the doe on the left side passing thru the ribcage and was stopped by the offside shoulder. The deer made it less than 75 yards. The arrow survived intact and only breakage on the head was a chip off the bottom left corner as seen in this photo
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/flintheadb.jpg)
COOL! I totally forgot about that head........looks good even now. I just wanted to add a comment based on lots of broken points and hafts.
Matt
QuoteOriginally posted by flntknp17:
I just wanted to add a comment based on lots of broken points and hafts.
Matt
Glad you did Matt. I'm certainly no expert (just someone with a little experience willing to pass along what I know) and rely on people such as yourself to make sure I don't give others bad information. Appreciate all the help I can get.
Brian those are some nice looking heads. Those 2 that are mounted look like they would get the job done nicely
:thumbsup:
Good stuff Mickey :thumbsup:
Brian,
Do you have Ron Sanders contact information? If so I would like to get it.
Thanks,
Walt Francis
Thanks Mickey :thumbsup: :notworthy:
Gracias Ferret!
Where do you get pine pitch?
Excellant tutoral, Mickey. I never thought of tracing the head first then cutting it out. I usually just cut a wide slot with the bandsaw and open it to fit the point with sand paper and a thin knife blade. Your way would be lots quicker. I'll try it on my next one.
I have not yet taken an animal with stone. I've been trying for the last couple of years but as of now, nothing. Pat
ps. One thing that I have noticed about some stone heads(I'm not a knapper) is that looking at the face of them they may look great but turn them on edge and that's not always the case. Many that I've looked at are curved along the edges and not appropriate(at least to me) for a hunting point. It makes it very difficult to mount these heads so the arrow spins true and this will reduce the penetration of the arrow. For those looking for stone heads for hunting arrows look at the edge cross section and be sure that it is symetrical and not curved.
TexMex, I think 3 Rivers carrys Pine Pitch and probably Pine Hollow Longbows carries it too.
Pat ... as you so correctly pointed out not all flint heads are created equal. I picked up a dozen flint heads out west in AZ a few years ago that they had in a bowl in some souvenir shop cheap that would not make good big game hunting heads but would make great small game hunting heads.I picked thru the bowl and skipped the curved ones like you talked about, and only got the ones that were straight but too small, or had a poorly shaped tip for a big game head. That tanged head that I mounted in the pictorial didn't have the best side profile you'll probably notice, IMO not good enough for a big game head, but like I said perfectly adequate for thumping squirrels, rabbits or grouse.
very well done mickey! :clapper: :clapper: :pray:
SWEET TUTE!
Love the stone,,, took my first one this year with the W. Blackwell brand!
Thanks Mickey!
Can anyone provide some contact information where you can buy good stone heads for big game? Was also wondering about how important grains of arrow weight or spine is for those of you who shoot stone. Your input is appreciated...
I think you could probably get some from 3 Rivers or Pine Hollow Longbows, or maybe some of the knappers on this site would want to swap you something for a head or two.
I don't worry much about grain weight on the heads themselves, just overall arrow weight. Most of the heads will run between 125 and 145 grains from what I have seen.
Excellent pictorial mickey....thanks! :bigsmyl: :thumbsup:
Thanks Mickey. How can we tell if a stone head is sharp enough to use for big game (deer) ? They don't feel like a sharp metal head.
ChuckC
Great tutorial Mickey.
Thanks Killdog. I just mounted a couple more last night getting ready for a trip to Texas.
Chuck that is a tough one and to tell you the truth I don't now if I have an adequate answer for you. I have an article coming out in a future issue of PA in which I expressed similar concerns. They can feel somewhat sharp, but not sharp like a 22 1/2 degree shaving sharp metal edge, yet because of their design still cut and penetrate as well as a modern head. If you have some heads that are "new" in other words freshly knapped by a reputable knapper chances are they will be sharp. If they have been in the dirt for years they will for certain not be sharp enough to hunt with. If you have doubts you can take a copper flaker and take off small flakes off the edges to reveal new edges to resharpen.
Having taken deer myself with a flint head and see the success of others such as Dean Torges, Tim Ott, Flntknp17 (Matt Graesch), DTala, Doug Campbell, Mark Baker, Killdeer, Osagetree, Wile E. Coyote (most recently) and others I no longer have any trepidations about using stone points. If I do my job and put the arrow where it belongs, the ancient rock will do it's job.
Question:
before tying/wraping the sinew how do you test it to see if it's spins true? ( I know just like any other kind of BH ) but are you looking for a wobble at the point or where it's joined to the shaft? Also if your cut in the shaft isn't just right doesn't that mess up the true spin as well?
Sal if you are using the pine pitch you can heat it up and re-adjust it if need be, but if you look at the pics on page 1 and see the one where you are looking down the shaft, if the tip lines up with the centerline of the shaft it should spin true. My heads mount tight enough in the slots that I can spin them on their tips and look for wobble.
I just took these 2 pics. In this first pic, the head is in the slot but not glued in
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/flinttrue1.jpg)
In this second pic (it's not really blurry) the head is standing on the tip and spinning at a high rate of speed. If it spins like a top, with no wobble, it is true.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/flinttrue2.jpg)
If it spins like this I can glue it, sinew it and shoot it and it will fly true. If the head is straight the slot must be straight. If the head is not straight then the slot must be made in the shaft to that it comes out straight, but I try to work with straight heads only.
Sal here's what I mean by the tip lining up with the centerline of the shaft (see I learned a new trick tonight hee hee)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/mountingflintr.jpg)
If the very tip is to the left or right of this centerline it won't spin or shoot worth a durn. It will be very noticable if it is off when you try and spin it.
Sal, I like using pine pitch glue for hafting points because it is adjustable at any time with a little heat. When I haft a point I pre-fit the point in the slot , remove it, drip molten pitch into the slot and push the "pre-heated" point into place. As it cools a bit I do spin tests and adjust as needed. Then, when ready, I wrap with sinew(that I've chewed) and when dry, I spin it again to be sure it's true before I seal it. Some times you will have to reheat the point (only) and adjust it. Be sure that the point lines up both horizontaly and vertically with the center line of the shaft. Pat
Thanks Micky & Pat, I want to get some points and try my luck at it. You Both do great work from I have seen on here and You both are very helpful in showing/telling how to do things. You both reinforced what I was thinking and I just wanted to make sure of that.
Now going by the pic of the spining point, if the tip is off (from being knapped) wouldn't that make it wobble? if so would you use a arrow spinner ( the kind they make these days? )to check for trueness.
Sal, I've never used an arrow spinner. That will only tell you if the shaft is straight and I use mostly hardwood shoot arrows and none of them are straight. If an arrow and point spin true as Mickey has shown, it should fly true.
I have mounted points that weren't flat on all plains but with a little adjustment when hafting the point, the arrow will spin true.
If you're buying stone heads or have some you have made or someone gave you, check all sides to be sure it's as true as possible. Quite a few heads that I have look great if looking at the 2 flat surfaces(arrowhead shape) but if you turn them on edge they favor one side more than the other. Some of these will never be hafted on arrows. Pat
Thanks Pat, You answered my question.... I can't use them kind of points here in Jersey, but I'm plainning on moving back down to Texas and I'll get some then and try them... Great Tut Mickey...& Thanks again Pat. Happy New Years Guys
per Flntknaps suggestion I went back down and added some more sinew to the hafting on these heads
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/texasheads1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/theferret111/texasheads2.jpg)
Hey Sal you'll notice the second one in from the right in the bottom pic is the one in the spin test above.
That should do it! LOL
They look great Mickey, I understand now what You & Pat are talking about...Later in 2007 I'll be trying my hand at making points a mounting them. AS of right now hopefully I'll be moving to Texas by Febuary 1st 2007, this way I can use them as well.
Happy & Safe New Years every1 :wavey: :jumper:
I've seen a bunch of critters shot with stone points...and I have to say, the wound channels are in almost every case what you would describe as AWESOME!
They are not slits, but rather holes that would be difficult for even a hog to close up with fat...and the blood trails have been nothing short of spectacular.
I haven't seen a marginally hit animal with a stone point, so can't comment on that...but as Mickey says, if you put it where its supposed to go you are going to be amazed at how well they work.
And after the shot, its generally not any less sharp than when in your quiver previously.
If you mistakenly cut yourself with one you will quickly learn how effectively they work- the wounds I've given myself with stone material I've ended up super glueing because they woudlnt close up any other way.
Check your state laws to be sure you are doing it legally...your mileage may vary. ;) :thumbsup:
That's some wicked looking ammo there Mr. Lotz...looking forward to some pics of your further "testing" :D
Won't be long JC..we are headed down to hunt with Littlefeather first week of February and chase some of those critters in your avatar. Think one of those rocks will go thru a stink pig ok?
Great tutorial! Those are really wonderful looking arrows. I can't wait to see them go to work on a pigs vitals!
Great thread - all the way through ("It takes a Villiage ... " - LOL. Or "How many Tradgangers to haft a head?" Answer: "Who cares, as long as we wind up with great info like this?") Definitly going into my printer - so I have pages for easy reference. I know, Puter storage is easier and takes less room but i like a page I can pick up and look at where I am working - I got a million of 'em (pages that is - :D ) I'm gonna do some this winter, before next season, good Lord willing!
Nice Job Mickey...... I'll be heading out to the shop to see where the tiller is sitting on your bow after I have my my morning coffee.....Terry
Nice looking heads and shafts Mickey, is the shaft with the small white stone head footed?
David
Thanks Bern!
Cool Terry! I'm excited about the prospect of chasing stink pigs with "Compadre".
Thanks David, no that is a node right behind the head. It is plugged though.
Hi guys,
excellent thread. I bought some agate heads from a popular seller on ebay and took a pic of some and the weight of each.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Archery/Stone%20Arrowheads/83006stoneheads004reh.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Archery/Stone%20Arrowheads/83006stoneheads006r.jpg)
These heads aren't the best or as sharp as I'd like but were something to work with.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Archery/Stone%20Arrowheads/92706arrowheadmacro005reh.jpg)
:)
ncbowman..look like plenty heavy heads but perspective is difficult without something of known size. Are the 78 and 80 small (dime sized in width) and the 280 282 quarter size and the 258 181 penny or nickle sized?
hmmm,I thought you might recognise the P&Y Newsletter mag. :D
I've given some of the heads away and altered others to be legal in NC, but
#280 is 2 5/8 x 1 3/8
#262 is 2 5/8 x 1 3/16 altered
#181 is 2 5/16 x 1 1/16 altered
#158 is 2 1/2 x 1 1/16 altered and is the one on the arrow.
#78 is smaller at 1 11/16 x 7/8
I also found some sawn obsidian preforms on ebay and have been learning to pressure flake with them.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v50/ncboman/Archery/Stone%20Arrowheads/122606arrowheads001r.jpg)
I don't think I'm far away from knapping huntable heads but I've got a good bit to learn. :)